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articulate_ink

Joined: 23 Mar 2004 Location: Left Korea in 2008. Hong Kong now.
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Posted: Sat Dec 08, 2007 7:37 pm Post subject: E-2 regs: Why is this your last straw? |
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There have been a number of threads about the new E-2 regulations. Some people have discussed their reasons why this latest batch of reactionary xenophobic craziness is the last straw, and why they'll be leaving. Others have said that the whole thing is being blown out of proportion, that upset E-2 holders planning to leave are overreacting, and so on. I want this thread to be about why this has been the turning point for people, why you're planning to leave, and why you feel Korea's just not worth it. This is my take on what others have said so far, plus a couple of my own observations.
I think that the (justifiable) expectation of inconsistent, shambolic enforcement will be near the top of the list of complaints. One Immigration officer will tell you one thing, the person at the next desk will tell you something different, and they'll both be right (in the Korean 2 + 2 = 5 sense of correctness). Managers, hagwon owners, and HR people will read the new regs through their own scrambled filters, thus making things even weirder. Advice to wait until the details are hammered out isn't helpful because it's something of a gamble what you'll be asked to do� without being given enough time to do it.
The lack of record-keeping is also a problem. Personally, I've submitted my degree and transcripts three times already, and I�ve only been here 2� years. Staying in Korea long-term on one of these foreigner-begone visas would require an endless supply of sealed transcripts, which aren't easy to obtain. Adding health checks and criminal background checks to the list of required documents that will be demanded repeatedly changes the process from annoying to onerous. Even more so if the documents have to be apostilled.
Some have commented on the uselessness, the insulting language, and the hypocrisy of the new requirements. The regs are useless because they wouldn't have kept Pedophile Guy out of Korea had they been enacted sooner, and they�re being applied only to a narrow range of visa applicants. People on other visas can also molest children. This fact seems to have been lost on Immigration. Also, wanting E-2 holders screened for alcoholism is rich in a country so thoroughly splashed with puddles of soju puke on weekend nights. In-country health checks are of particular concern because of the lack of privacy in many cases. It�s one thing for Immigration officials to see the results, but knowing your doctor might call your boss and blab about your yeast infection or your hemorrhoids or whatever? Anathema. And while a basic background check and health screening are reasonable requirements if one is working with children in a country with nationalized health care, the broad implication that E-2 holders are bringing problems to Korea is offensive. If these things reflect how the Samsung employees in charge of the country view us, well, goodbye.
Another common theme is that people are maxing out on the cognitive dissonance that goes with living here. Korea is not a logical culture. It doesn't work that way; Korean culture values relationships and harmony in the moment above logic and consistency. Western thought works the opposite way. Living here requires a sort of buffer: when things don�t make sense, you often have to let go of your inclination to react with dismay. By the standards we�re used to, the way things are done in Korea will never make sense. There's also the constant tug-of-war needed to defend one's boundaries. This is a competitive culture, with no end to the manipulation and the power struggles. It can be exhausting to live in a place where earnest inconsistency and expedient lies are culturally appropriate. For many of us, the new regs may have upped the stakes.
Finally, these regs further deprive expats of agency. First of all, for most of us, the language barrier already makes it difficult to get things done, to obtain services and information. Even fairly fluent speakers of the language may not be fluent enough to advocate for themselves if it should become necessary in this new environment. Also, the Confucian mindset managers have toward employees keeps many in a relatively powerless position. When your boss believes he or she owns you, and when this person controls your housing and your work visa as well as your income, life can be difficult. The expectation that employees ask 'how high?' when the boss tells them to jump is odious to the Western mind. If foreigners protest the new regulations, not only will it not do us much good, it�ll also reflect rather badly on us: we�ll be seen as criticizing Korea, which is Not Done in public. The hagwon owners� association may have the power to neutralize the regulations, but foreigners have little or no legal standing. The system is already heavily stacked against us. Worse, in the last year or so there have been two major reductions of our autonomy: first, the banking situation (the restrictions on international ATM cards and on new accounts); second, these regulations. What�s your own level of comfort with being powerless? I think the current environment in Korea erodes basic needs for personal security. Others may not see it that way, and that�s their prerogative, but I think this has devolved into a bad situation.
To disclaim, I've been following the threads about this with a little more detachment than most, I think. I hit the wall with Korea well before Pedophile Guy was arrested and the backlash began. As I've said in other posts elsewhere, I�m on my way out. I�m gone in July unless I find a job sooner. I�ve been treated quite badly by my employer this semester, and I�m past the point of diminishing returns. This new Immigration insanity adds insult to injury. Although I�m planning to leave, I�ve taken a personal interest in this because I�m appalled. I still live here. I�d like to think that this is a tempest in a teacup, but I don�t. Even if it blows over, the powerlessness of foreigners here still seems precarious to the point of being unsafe. If you�re an expat, to some degree you�ll always be at the mercy of your host government, but plenty of other places are less xenophobic than Korea. |
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StephannieK
Joined: 22 Jan 2006 Location: Gyeongbuk-do
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Posted: Sat Dec 08, 2007 8:35 pm Post subject: Salute~! |
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Bravo~ very eloquently put~
My turning point has been the new regs, not because immi wants them, but because immi has placed impossible time constraints. I'm changing jobs with my current visa expiring Feb 08. I've gotten another job lined up, but the anxiety of 1) not knowing if they will accept my visa transfer or not 2) being told I can submit a �website based check or a receipt of having paid for the FBI check� in lieu of the actual paper by liaisons with immi (fact or fiction?) 3) knowing the FBI doesn�t� apostle, and my home state of NC will only give a crim background check to a registered business (ie no internationals) and local checks will come on a dot matrix printout with no letterhead AND I�d have to pay a notary to be onsite, then all the mailing mumbojumbo between local-state, then state-federal to get the apostle~! AND I�ve got to convince friends to do the running around for me~! AND give power of attorney to someone~! AND have this by end of Jan if I hope to satisfy new regs.
What they ask is logical, but the timeframe with no concessions is impossible. And for a job market that�s offering smaller or no housing, a pittance for housing allowances, shrinking vacations, forced camps, higher & higher base hours to the contract, AND unfriendly (ie patriotic) co-workers. Hmmmm� not looking like the cost benefit ratio is favorable�
AND if this is the reaction to the CPN event, then ask yourself what is going to happen when these new regs uncover hidden pasts? It will reinforce the xenophobia, and likely tighten up regs even more.
Using the incompatible western logic� supply & demand hints that fewer teachers will mean more won for those who survive� from the IMF days to now, average income has risen 500.000 at least for the low-end paying positions. And that�s a low estimate. Check out this thread for more info on that time�
http://forums.eslcafe.com/korea/viewtopic.php?t=105373
didn�t see any mention of the fingerprinting requirements but it was just after the IMF crash. And for those who stayed, suffered the racist shakedown, there were opportunities to prosper.
But as articulate_ink (what an appropriate name!) has pointed out, logic doesn�t apply here. |
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nautilus

Joined: 26 Nov 2005 Location: Je jump, Tu jump, oui jump!
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Posted: Sat Dec 08, 2007 9:49 pm Post subject: |
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That really was well put and I think it summarises most peoples current feeling.
For those public school workers that have already undergone CRCs and medicals, it doesn't seem that bad. We're just waiting to see the new regs as they appear for certain, and how much hassle or not it actually means. |
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sadsac
Joined: 22 Dec 2003 Location: Gwangwang
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Posted: Sat Dec 08, 2007 9:56 pm Post subject: |
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My wife and I have been here since 2001 and have suffered through the many indignities foisted on foreigners by uncaring, unsympathetic and ignorant government agencies and workers in these past 7 years. The new regs are definitely the end for us. march 16th will see us bid farewell to working in Korea. Wages have been eroded in real times by the strengthening of the Korean won and the rise in the cost of living in Korea. Wages have not kept up with these changes. Then we must supply transcripts, the fact that these can be as easily forged as degrees seems to be lost of the MOJ and Immigration. Now we must provide a criminal background check and a medical, which is then duplicated in Korea upon your arrival is rather ridiculous. I do not have any issues regarding these additional checks, but they should have always been a requirement and there should be a grace period of 6 months to allow people to fulfill the new requirements. This constant knee jerk reaction of the MOJ and Immigration just gets frustrating and annoying. I now firmly believe that things will only deteriorate further within the ESL market in Korea. Other contries now look much more attractive from a work perspective than Korea does. My wife and I have had some amazing times in Korea, but unfortunately we often lose sight of those times when the inherent stupidity of Koreans comes to the fore. Gain the you must understand our culture, but we really don't give a sh*t about you or your cultural norms. Time to say goodbye.  |
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Snowkr
Joined: 03 Jun 2005
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Posted: Sat Dec 08, 2007 10:54 pm Post subject: |
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Well done, OP. This was very well stated. You ought to look into getting that published.
Your username, "articulate ink" is more than appropriate.
Even though I do not personally feel the same way that you do, I think that your post is excellent and should be read by others outside this forum. |
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PBEnglish
Joined: 24 Nov 2006 Location: Shanghai
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Posted: Sat Dec 08, 2007 10:56 pm Post subject: Re: E-2 regs: Why is this your last straw? |
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Your post sums up exactly why I am frustrated with Korea, why I am regretting resigning for a second year, and most importantly, why there is no way in hell I will be resigning for a third year.
I resigned for a second year in September (with a starting date of Oct), so just around the time of Pedophile Guy (as a matter of fact, his story "broke" when I was back home between contract). So I dodged the added nonsense that Korea has (or will be) throwing at new applicants. My frustrations with these new regs isn't so much that they are inacting them. I think Korea needs to tighten up their issuing of visas. My frustrations lay with the fact that all of the responsibility lies with the person applying for the visa, and there is seemingly NO responsibility being taken by Korean immigration for the previous mistakes that have landed Korea in the mess they (claim to) find themselves in.
Since coming here in September of '06, I've had my degree and transcripts verified 3 times. That doesn't include the initial verification that happened when I applied for my visa. Is there any rhyme or reason to that? Is there honestly something different in my transcripts or degree from the first time to the fourth time?
That being said, jumping through the hoops wouldn't be that big of a hassle to me, if this country wasn't so xenophobic and downright racist towards anyone who isn't Korean. I would accept going through extra sets of checks and balances if it was enforced evenly across the board AND if there were reasonable expectations given for enforcing them (for example, time frames) But given that Korea doesn't seem to be too interested in enforcing this when it comes to their own citizens. It's downright insulting to expect that "the evil foriegner" must jump through their hoops at a moment's notice.
In my case, all of these new regulations are just compounded by the fact that since I resigned, the working experience has sucked. My boss is becoming far more unreasonable in expectations, her attitude towards myself and the other foriegn teacher is nothing short of insulting and the overall atmosphere is just not what it was during my first year. Obviously there was something there that I enjoyed enough for me to resign, but all of the positive things that did exist in the first year have pretty much dried up.
In short, my contract is finished on Oct 7th, 2008. At that time, I am out of this country without so much as a second thought. I will go to a country where a teacher is respected, a foriegner is not treated like dirt and things actually make sense. As I've said in another thread, Korea and their backwards attitude towards anything that is not Korean can stick it. |
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Al Khidr
Joined: 27 Nov 2007
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Posted: Sat Dec 08, 2007 11:13 pm Post subject: |
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According to EFL Law's website on Korea, the number of foreign teachers here has already dropped significantly in the past five years. Perhaps a mass exodus is what is desired here. I've always felt that as a country, Korea in general has viewed foreigners or anything that doesn't harken back to a glorified confucian past as a temporary expediency. A poll done here a few weeks ago claimed that Koreans seemed ready for a multicultural society. Yet, when I asked my university students (those who hadn't lived abroad) to define what that multicultural society would be, they had no idea. Similarly, many years ago I worked with a Korean middle school teacher here who told me she thought the English language could be stripped of all culture references and taught to her students. After she came back from a couple of months of living in San Francisco, she dumped that idea wholesale.
For all the boasting that goes on here about Korea's IT industry, the emphasis seems to be more on the tech and less on the information. There used to be a program on TV a few years back where a couple of Korean guys would travel the globe, asking in there poor English what people from other (usually non-English-speaking) countries knew about Korea. There seemed little attempt to provide the Korean viewer any information on the country the doofuses were visiting; instead, it was a pitiful exercise in trying to get some head-scratching villager in Panama or Uzebekistan to learn something about kimchi or the konglish use of the word "fighting!" Good for laughs to watch, but a rather sad commentary on the inferiority complex this culture exhibits where depending on the situaton, Korea is a developed country and "number one!" or it is a victimized or struggling developing country that might achieve great things if only (fill in the blank) would let them.
I predict that within the next five to ten years, the notion that English will be a kind of quasi-second language here will be cast aside. Maybe this is how it should be. Japan has done well enough without its citizenry showing particularly high levels of English fluency (next to none, from what I observed on my five visits there). Since Koreans seem to want less and less western influence these days, perhaps they ought to be embarking on an expansive Chinese language program, since China now is dominating their trade while also buying up North Korean resources in long-term contracts. However, whether Koreans like it or not, 25% of their men are marrying non-Korean Asians. One way or another this country will not be a monoculture a couple of generations down the line. Waxing philosophic aside, living here has cured me of any notions of kumbaya world peace why-can't-we-all-get-along ideas I had floating around my head before I ever left my home country ten years ago. It also put some dough in my pockets. |
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twg

Joined: 02 Nov 2006 Location: Getting some fresh air...
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Posted: Sat Dec 08, 2007 11:31 pm Post subject: |
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Summed it up for me.
Quote: |
they ought to be embarking on an expansive Chinese language program, since China now is dominating their trade while also buying up North Korean resources in long-term contracts. |
Ah, someone got it... |
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bassexpander
Joined: 13 Sep 2007 Location: Someplace you'd rather be.
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Posted: Sat Dec 08, 2007 11:53 pm Post subject: |
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Al Khidr wrote: |
According to EFL Law's website on Korea, the number of foreign teachers here has already dropped significantly in the past five years. |
A call that a load of crap.
Either you're quoting them wrong, or someone on that site is posting out of their rear end.
I've been here over 5 years, and I can say without a doubt that I see three times as many foreigners now as I did five years ago (I'm talking a month after the World Cup was over and done with, and soccer fans had left).
I would say that there are loads more teachers here -- whether they be illegal or legal -- far more teachers.
I will also say, as I have stated before, that I expect a huge percentage of the Canadian population to leave after their contracts are up and come back in with a tourist visa to work illegally. The numbers will easily be in the thousands. Korea is in no way prepared to handle this. Not even close. They don't have near enough workers to catch people doing this as it is, and many rich/powerful Koreans are far too worried about losing their reciprocal visa agreement with Canada to do a thing about it.
So what will happen is that the Korean MOJ/Immigration will make some big announcement about stepping-up enforcement against those who work here illegally on tourist visas -- they'll hire another 5 or 10 police to "handle the problem" -- and they'll be twice as overwhelmed as they were before. They'll call the media to air a few high-profile busts of illegal teachers, and will proclaim that their grand plan is working fine.
In the meantime, we'll still have double or triple the illegal teachers that we had before. |
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normalcyispasse

Joined: 27 Oct 2006 Location: Yeosu until the end of February WOOOOOOOO
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Posted: Sun Dec 09, 2007 12:56 am Post subject: |
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Having been here some time already, this is the nail in the coffin for me. I like Koreans individually, but in a group they're insufferable; I love speaking with Koreans in small numbers but, collectively, their groupthink is absolutely staggering. Korea is, to crib a bit, where "logic falls softly dead;" it's where reactionary politics absolutely do rule in a country filled with self-jeong. Being an Other here is becoming increasingly difficult. Living outside any major metropolitan area doesn't help this, I'm sure.
Petty racism I can deal with. I've had my problems with banks, businesses, etc. Nationalized racism is a harder pill to swallow, and I've encountered it a few times (e.g. with the police). It's getting harder and harder to justify staying in a country that so obviously doesn't want me here. Sure, Koreans want what I have to offer -- i.e., a white face, a willingness to work hard and educate well, a command of English -- but they don't want what I represent (that is, something Not Korean).
I've been verging on being on terms with many of the "cultural differences" that Koreans will propound but these blatantly racist, byzantine directives step over the line. The street of cultural differences runs two ways, and it seems that the higher-ups here refuse to acknowledge that their own culture might actually stand to improve by commingling with the DNA of other cultures. These latest regulations demonstrate their head-in-the-sand approach towards "globalization," and I no longer want to be a part of that.
Much is said here (that is, the country at large) about Korea being a hub of Asia and a thoroughfare for ideas and commerce but Koreans themselves are sabotaging their own propagandistic ideals. There's only so much silliness (such as the MoE pasting stickers over "Sea of Japan" in all the textbooks) to which I can turn a blind eye. Now that the silliness is embodied in regulatory form it has come high time for me to walk politely through the gate at Incheon World Best Air Hub and move on to greener pastures. |
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hogwonguy1979

Joined: 22 Dec 2003 Location: the racoon den
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Posted: Sun Dec 09, 2007 1:59 am Post subject: |
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the op summed it up for me too. i've been here since 1996 (with a couple of 1 year breaks along the way) and in the past few years its been getting harder for foreigners to live here.
The banking laws now are almost as draconian in regards to sending money out/accessing your money here from abroad as they were before the meltdown. for a country that wants to be a "financial hub" this is nuts.
now lets look at getting around this "sparkling" country. Can you find any train info in english anymore? nope, it appears that their beautiful ktx trains are for koreans only as the english site has been down for repairs for over 6 months now. you promote yourself for tourists but how can tourists get info if they dont know korean?
they dont want us to buy products online or join online sites because they only accept korean id #'s, this is nuts again i get the feeling of "korea for koreans only"
also look at what kitekid was saying here about the family registry and her problems with it. imagine having a child and you not legally being recognized as its father or mother simply because you are a foreigner. throw in the fact that if marry a local have a child then get divorced you lose all rights to stay here or have visitation rights because you are a foreigner
the new e2 hoops though somewhat well-intentioned seem to be sending the message again "we dont want you here" given what the guy from immigration said at the seoul town hall meeting. Yeah tb tests and crim background checks are ok as you would have to pass those in the US in order to teach but this apostille bs and the constant degree verification is nuts. as people have said why cant the locals put things in an easily accessable database at immigration? Oh that would make too much sense.
am I leaving at the end of my current contract? No I plan to do one more contract becuase we had set some financial goals that are easier to attain here than somewhere else but if somewhere else like thailand vietnam etc would make it even remotely doable we would be gone tomorrow |
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Dome Vans Guest
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Posted: Sun Dec 09, 2007 2:19 am Post subject: |
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Can anyone tell me any country at the moment that is making it "easier" for foreigners to go and work in their country?
Isn't what Korea is doing, in line with the general global trend of clamping down on under-qualified, useless foreign workers who contribute little to the economy?
I'm not suggesting that Korea is going round it in the correct fashion, I don't really see it as a Korea only phenomena. A lot of countries are regressing with regards to their immigration laws, especially with regards to race issues. Shoot me down for this, I expect to be. I'm not apologising for Korea, I'm just not thinking that what they are doing is much different from everyone else.
There seems to be general trend on these boards that their treatment by bad bosses, co-workers tends to be a race thing. You've never had crappy treatment from a boss, co-workers or customers back home have you? Of course not. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003 Location: Retired
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Posted: Sun Dec 09, 2007 2:30 am Post subject: |
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Dome Vans wrote: |
Can anyone tell me any country at the moment that is making it "easier" for foreigners to go and work in their country?
Isn't what Korea is doing, in line with the general global trend of clamping down on under-qualified, useless foreign workers who contribute little to the economy?
I'm not suggesting that Korea is going round it in the correct fashion, I don't really see it as a Korea only phenomena. A lot of countries are regressing with regards to their immigration laws, especially with regards to race issues. Shoot me down for this, I expect to be. I'm not apologising for Korea, I'm just not thinking that what they are doing is much different from everyone else.
There seems to be general trend on these boards that their treatment by bad bosses, co-workers tends to be a race thing. You've never had crappy treatment from a boss, co-workers or customers back home have you? Of course not. |
I don't usually agree with you, but this post was very well put. Yes it is not just a Korean thing. The Middle East is also placing restrictions on foreign workers. One country in particular (name escapes me at the moment) is passing a law that low-skilled workers can only stay there for a maximum of six years...and then they must leave.
That said, it is sad that Korea and most other countries do seem to be regressing in respect to their immigration laws. However I'm of the opinion that this particular situation is in large part because of the election. Who's to say that it won't be quietly dropped or modified after the election? Remember the 4 year degree rule and what happened to that. I'm adopting a wait-and-see attitude towards this. IF these new requirements do become law and are enforced...I'll jump through the hoops ONCE more. Like they said, we'll only have to do this once. But if they mess up and I have to do this EVERY year afterwards...no way Jose.
Last edited by TheUrbanMyth on Sun Dec 09, 2007 2:32 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Octavius Hite

Joined: 28 Jan 2004 Location: Househunting, looking for a new bunker from which to convert the world to homosexuality.
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Posted: Sun Dec 09, 2007 2:31 am Post subject: |
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Quote: |
Can anyone tell me any country at the moment that is making it "easier" for foreigners to go and work in their country? |
Canada, we let in 300,000+ immigrants every year. For a country of 32 million thats a huge amount of people. Add in temp workers, foreign students, and tourists and its even larger. To immigrate you do need to have a Crim background check and a medical, but it isn't for just one group of people its for all immigrants. Thats the difference.
What makes me so angry is that if I was to go back to Canada and open a restaurant or sauna and put up a sign saying "No Koreans" I would be arrested, sued, and dragged in front of the Human Rights C omission. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003 Location: Retired
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Posted: Sun Dec 09, 2007 2:33 am Post subject: |
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Octavius Hite wrote: |
Quote: |
Can anyone tell me any country at the moment that is making it "easier" for foreigners to go and work in their country? |
Canada, we let in 300,000+ immigrants every year. For a country of 32 million thats a huge amount of people. Add in temp workers, foreign students, and tourists and its even larger. To immigrate you do need to have a Crim background check and a medical, but it isn't for just one group of people its for all immigrants. Thats the difference.
What makes me so angry is that if I was to go back to Canada and open a restaurant or sauna and put up a sign saying "No Koreans" I would be arrested, sued, and dragged in front of the Human Rights C omission. |
IMMIGRANTS are a little different from temporary foreign workers don't you think? These people are coming to Canada to become citizens. |
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