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Manner of Speaking
Joined: 09 Jan 2003
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 Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 8:00 pm Post subject: Re: ... |
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| Nowhere Man wrote: |
| Is anyone here envious (in the sense that they'd rather pay US insurance companies to look after their health? |
I think its up to each country to decide what kind of health care system they want to have...but in Canada up to now I've never had to know about deductables, coverage, plans, etc. Other than eyeglasses, dental and drugs, everything's covered; you just go to the doctor or hospital. |
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howie2424
Joined: 09 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 8:16 pm Post subject: |
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Well right off the bat you gotta be suspicious about the writer. There is no 55 per cent �tax bracket� in Canada. The maximum income tax rate in Canada is currently 29 per cent on income in excess of $120,000 http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/tax/individuals/faq/taxrates-e.html . What he is talking about when he says 55 per cent is the total amount of tax a Canadian who smokes, drinks and drives a gas guzzling SUV might have to pay if you add up all of his income tax, sales taxes, VATs and all other hidden or indirect taxes. Saying he�s in a 55 per cent tax bracket is misleading in the extreme.
I agree that there are problems with the Canadian medicare system but in my own experience, whenever I�ve needed medical treatment I�ve gotten it promptly, it�s been satisfactory and it hasn�t cost me much. I am personally unaware of anyone who has had the sort of problems the guy is complaining about and I have an aging mother who has all kinds of health issues that require her to see a doctor on practically a weekly basis.
I�d be very wary of the horror stories you read about Canadian health care. A lot of it is misinformation disseminated by medical associations who don�t like the fact that the government tells their members that they can�t bill more than $110 for a 5 minute consultation with a patient. Cry me a river. Later that distorted data is picked up on, as some other posters have noted, by American politicians to support their opposition to health care reform in their own country.
Last edited by howie2424 on Thu Dec 13, 2007 6:45 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 10:28 pm Post subject: Re: ... |
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| No_hite_pls wrote: |
| Nowhere Man wrote: |
| Is anyone here envious (in the sense that they'd rather pay US insurance companies to look after their health? |
The U.S. health system spends a higher portion of its gross domestic product than any other country but ranks 37 out of 191 countries according to its performance, the report finds. The United Kingdom, which spends just six percent of GDP on health services, ranks 18 th . Several small countries � San Marino, Andorra, Malta and Singapore are rated close behind second- placed Italy.
http://www.who.int/whr/2000/media_centre/press_release/en/index.html
The facts are a Canada on average pay less per captia GDP than Americans on health care and live an average 4 years longer. |
A good book that describes how poor the American health-care system is:
Critical Condition |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 10:34 pm Post subject: |
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The poster above me beat me to the reason this was not written by a Canadian (55% tax...)
If we are going to compare two systems, the American and Canadian, then the Canadian is better in virtually every way. Where the Canadians are not better is in research and timely access to surgery and certain examinations. However, there are more than two possible systems, and neither the Canadian nor American is the best. I agree with the WHO that the Finnish and French systems are superior.
My experience is this. In the 9th grade I required emergency knee surgery due to a golf-ball sized lump that very suddenly appeared on my knee. My GP told me this was a very, very urgent matter and that they would book me for the next opening to have the lump hacked off. The next opening was more than 8 months later. I flew to Montana that week and had it done.
My brother had a similar problem whereby he was told that he needed his head opened up asap and that it was potentially life or death. That was in early January 2002 and he was scheduled in, on the other side of the country, for August 2002. He flew to Seattle and had it done the following week.
The Canadian system does some things well and some things less well. But I�d MUCH rather be in the Canadian system and be financially comfortable enough that, should an emergency arise, I could afford a quick American jaunt. That is the best of both situations. And you don�t need to be rich to be in this situation either. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 11:49 pm Post subject: |
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| It's more US right-wing social propaganda designed to make their election base fear change even more than they already do. |
I agree with twg. Something about this just stinks of right-wing libertarian fear-mongering. |
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enns
Joined: 02 May 2006
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| Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 7:22 am Post subject: |
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Some of it's true and other parts I have no idea where he is coming from.
Health care in Canada is expensive and is becoming more expensive each year. Over $0.40 of every dollar taxed is for health care, this number is rising rapidly and will hit 50 cents within a few years if this doesn't change
Another interesting fact: The average Canadian pays $4500 a year for health care This is far more than the US and probably more than most other countries in the world.
In return for this cost, we do all get quality health care, essentially when we need it. I have never heard of hard quotas in all my research nor do people routinely die on waiting lists. Conversely, ER wait times tend to be over an hour, and much higher in many cities. Michael Moore was irresponsible in how he portrayed our system much like the author you are quoting.
The bottom line is: if Canadians want faster/better service there is a plethora of private clinics in country and many more south of the border more than happy to help you. |
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TexasPete
Joined: 24 May 2006
Location: Koreatown
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| Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 5:39 pm Post subject: |
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I don't get the whole "and there is no family doctor!" argument in the "evils of socialized medicine debate. For the people that can't get coverage, not having any doctor at all is the real problem.
Same with the "you can't choose your doctor under evil socialized medicine" argument. If you use and HMO or whatever, i suppose you have a choice, but not much of one considering you can only use doctors and hospitals that accept your plan.
Finally there's the "why should my taxes pay for someone else's illnesses under evil socialized medicine" argument. Well what do these people think they are doing paying into an HMO? If a person gets really banged up and needs a ton of medical attention and is lucky enough to not be rejected by their HMO, surely the person themself didn't actually pay hundreds of thousands of dollars into the system to cover their expenses. That money comes from the pooled collective money of the entire HMO and the investor's resources.
The whole socialized medicine debate is disingenuous on so many levels. People don't want their taxes to go up? Well at least they would be getting something for those taxes instead of the usual effed up roadways and infrastructure and port security that we're paying billions of dollars to ignore. Ted Stevens can get 250,000,000 to build a bridge to an island of 3500 people in the middle of nowhere Alaska, but Minnesota can't scrap enough money together to keep bridges from falling into rivers?
Ugh....American politics sucks balls. |
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howie2424
Joined: 09 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 6:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Health care in Canada is expensive and is becoming more expensive each year. Over $0.40 of every dollar taxed is for health care, this number is rising rapidly and will hit 50 cents within a few years if this doesn't change |
I'd be interested in seeing the source for that figure. It seems high to me given that federal spending on health care is currently the 4th largest expense. I suppose it would vary depending on what province you're in. Any links? |
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enns
Joined: 02 May 2006
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| Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 9:54 pm Post subject: |
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I used that figure from a paper a few years back, you're right, it is a provincial figure(Ontario). Here's the first link that came up on google to support it:
| Quote: |
| public spending on health care will go from its current share of 42 percent of all revenues, to approximately 50 percent of all revenues by 2013 |
http://www.fraserinstitute.org/commerce.web/newsrelease.aspx?nid=4004 |
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Manner of Speaking
Joined: 09 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2007 5:34 am Post subject: |
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Yeah but anything the Fraser Institute writes has to be taken with a grain of salt, or at least compared to other sources. When they first started writing/complaining about the federal debt years ago, they lumped in the infrastructure debt of provincially-owned utility companies like Ontario Hydro into the figures to deliberately inflate them. If you say "free market!!" to these guys three times in a row, they ejaculate in their pants. 
In addition, the rise in health care expenditures is largely due to the steady increase in prescription drug costs: it's the fastest growing expenditure in the health care system. The best - and most balanced - writer in Canada on the health care system and costs is Dr. Michael Rachlis, whose been writing about these issues for 20 years:
http://www.michaelrachlis.com/product.pfe.php |
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Geckoman
Joined: 07 Jun 2007
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| Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2007 7:00 am Post subject: America's Health Care System is #1 |
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Don't believe the lies about how great the Canadian health care system is. It's totally untrue.
Read the text below from an episode of ABC's 20/20 titled "Whose Body Is It, Anyway? Sick In America." Or go to http://abcnews.go.com/2020/Stossel/story?id=3580676&page=1
Below is some of the text from that episode that I got from the ABC website. The website does not provide all of the text from that episode.
Or at least I could not find all of the text there.
Make no mistake about it, America's health care system is second to none.
_____________________________
| Quote: |
See http://abcnews.go.com/2020/Stossel/story?id=3580676&page=1 or below.
"Whose Body Is It, Anyway? Sick In America"
American Health Care in Critical Condition
The Case for Putting Individuals, Not Employers or Government, in Control of Health Care
By JOHN STOSSEL and ANDREW SULLIVAN
Sept. 11, 2007
Most everyone agrees, America's health-care system is a mess.
Millions of Americans lack health insurance and still our annual health-care costs exceed $2 trillion � that's about the size of the entire economy of China. For the country with the world's "best" medical care, a lot of people seem unhappy.
Many hate the insurance industry.
Employers have seen insurance premiums rise 87 percent over the last seven years. General Motors now spends more on its employees' health insurance than on steel. Doctors are fed up, too; the average physician's office spends 14 percent of its income filling out paperwork.
No one seems angrier than the patients who have been denied care. Vicki Readling of North Carolina was diagnosed with breast cancer after she had quit her job and lost her employer's insurance. Readling purchased temporary insurance for herself, but when it expired she was told that because of her pre-existing condition � cancer � she would now have to pay $27,000 a year for a new policy. With an income of $60,000 and twin sons in college, she couldn't afford it.
Insurance industry spokeswoman Karen Ignani is eager to report that most people aren't like Readling. Polls show that while people dislike the insurance industry in general, 87 percent of people with health insurance are happy with their coverage. Only 3 percent of health insurance claims are denied, she says.
In his hit documentary "Sicko," Michael Moore focuses on tragic stories of people whose insurance claims have been denied. His prognosis? He calls for "the elimination of private profit-making health insurance companies" and suggests turning over all health-care spending to the government to provide "free" health care to everyone. He goes to countries like Canada and Britain and implies that their socialized systems are far better than that of the United States.
'What It Costs When It's Free'
There are many problems with health insurance, but that doesn't mean we should put the government in control. If it's decided that health care should be paid for with tax dollars, then it's up to the government to decide how that money should be spent. There's only so much money to go around, so the inevitable result is rationing.
It's just the law of supply and demand. Lowering prices increases demand. Lowering the price to nothing pushes demand through the roof. Author P.J. O'Rourke said it best: "If you think health care is expensive now, wait until you see what it costs when it's free."
When health care is free, governments deal with all that increased demand by limiting what's available.
The reality of "free" health care is that people wait. In the United Kingdom, one in eight patients waits more than a year for hospital treatment and the British government recently set its goal to keep wait times to less than 18 weeks � that's more than four months! In Canada, almost a million citizens are waiting for necessary surgery and more than a million Canadians can't find a regular doctor. In the small town of Norwood, Ontario, a weekly drawing is held in which a townsperson wins the right to access the town's one family doctor.
Governments ratchet down health-care costs in different ways. Doctors went on strike last year in Germany because their government's system pays them less than they thought they deserved and forces them to work thousands of hours of unpaid overtime. In the United Kingdom, one hospital was inspired to save money money by not changing sheets daily. British papers report that instead of washing the linens, nurses were told to just turn the bedsheets over.
Government is less the answer to our health-care crisis than the problem. It was our government that helped to create the absurd system in which two out of three Americans get health insurance through their employer. In a country where four in 10 Americans change their job every year, this system makes little sense; it leaves people like Readling without coverage when they need it most.
The government also makes insurance expensive by mandating the medical services that policies must cover. Required services vary state by state and include massage therapy, pastoral counseling, acupuncture, hair prosthesis and dentures. Such mandates are a reason why an individual policy in New Jersey costs around $4,000 a year while a policy in Iowa costs only a third of that. Yet insurance regulations make it illegal for someone in New Jersey to buy a policy from out of state.
The Way We Pay
Another problem that raises costs, and keeps individuals from controlling their own health care, is the way we pay for medical care. Out of every dollar that the United States spends on health care, only 12 cents comes out of the pocket of patients, according to the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services. Most of us have our medical expenses covered by a third party, either an insurance company or the government.
When we pay for health care with someone else's money, it creates nasty incentives. It's good to be covered in case of a medical catastrophe, like a heart attack or cancer, but when patients pay for almost everything from physicals to acupuncture using third-party money, they have no reason to care about cost. Because the buyers don't care about cost, neither do the health-care providers.
"It's gotten to the point where doctors don't even know how much it costs them to provide this service or that service or how much an office visit should cost. Try asking a doctor how much an office visit costs and watch their face go blank," said Michael Cannon, director of health policy at the Cato Institute.
Our health-care system has become totally removed from the competitive market forces that have improved every other area of the economy. If patients cared about cost, health-care providers would compete to attract patients. They'd do innovative things to keep costs low while increasing quality.
Harvard Business School professor Regina Herzlinger, author of "Who Killed Health Care?", reminds people that "when Henry Ford came around, cars cost more than houses." By competing for profit, Ford revolutionized the auto industry. In eight years, he cut the price of cars in half while improving quality immensely. In nearly every sector of the economy, prices drop over time as technology improves. Not so in health care.
Customer Service, Competition, Control
Can you e-mail or call your doctor to ask quick questions? In the 21st century, when even small children regularly use computers, many doctors and hospitals don't.
"Why would they?" said Dr. David Gratzer, author of "The Cure." E-mail and telephone consultations aren't things most doctors can get paid for. Dr. John Goodman of the National Center for Policy Analysis, said, "The federal government has a list of 7,500 procedures it will pay for � the telephone's not on the list [and] neither is e-mail."
But when patients are in control of their health-care spending, things get better. Lasik surgery isn't covered by most insurance policies, so patients pay for this high-tech procedure out of their own pocket. It's for this reason that laser surgeon Brian Bonanni gives out his cell phone number and e-mail address to all of his patients. He knows that he has to attract patients by making himself available.
Competition has also made Lasik cheaper: While in nearly every other field of medicine, prices have gone up faster than consumer prices in general, the price of Lasik has fallen by as much as 30 percent. The quality of the surgery has also improved. The difference is that people care about prices when they spend their own money, so providers compete to offer services that are faster, better and cheaper.
John Mackey, CEO of the supermarket chain Whole Foods, saw his insurance premiums rise through the roof so he changed the way his employees got health care. He proposed a health insurance plan with a high deductible. To help meet that deductible, the company puts money into a "personal wellness account" for each employee and employees use that money to pay for routine care. The money in the account belongs to the employees and puts them more in control of their health-care spending. Employees pay for the small stuff, like sore throats and sprained ankles, but their health insurance covers them in case of a catastrophe. Accounts like these are typically called HSAs, or Health Savings Accounts.
Mackey saw Whole Foods' health-care costs drop by 13 percent the first year the plan was in place. Some employees objected. They wanted the old "full-coverage" plan back. One wanted "pet bereavement services" covered. Whole Foods then held a vote and "77 percent of team members voted for the health plan that we have today," said Mackey. Today he says most of his employees love the plan because it allows them to spend the money how they want to spend it.
'You and Me'
Whole Foods' health-care costs have been creeping back up lately. Mackey says it's because there are so few people with health plans like his. Only 4.5 million people in America have Health Savings Accounts, according to a 2007 census conducted by America's Health Insurance Plans. That's a tiny fraction of the insurance market, but consumer-directed health plans are a step in the right direction toward placing individuals � not government or insurance companies � in charge of their health-care dollars.
The more people control the money they spend on their own health care, the more people shop around and the more providers compete to attract patients by lowering prices while improving quality. It's putting individuals in control that could turn our health-care sector into the vibrant, competitive marketplace that we see in nearly every other area of our economy.
After all, it's our body and our health. Shouldn't we be in control of how our health-care dollars are spent?
Harvard's Herzlinger said, "Who should decide whether you live or die? Do you want the government to decide? Do you want a health insurer to decide? Who's gonna make that decision? Is it gonna be a government? Is it gonna be an insurer? Or is it gonna be you and me?"
Putting individuals in control of our health � rather than our employers or the government � is a better way to cure what ails America's health system.
Source: ABC's 20/20; http://abcnews.go.com/2020/Stossel/story?id=3580676&page=1 |
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howie2424
Joined: 09 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2007 12:46 am Post subject: |
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Manner of Speaking said
| Quote: |
| Yeah but anything the Fraser Institute writes has to be taken with a grain of salt, or at least compared to other sources. |
Agreed. The Fraser Institute is where people talk about 55 per cent tax brackets that don't exist.
Geckoman
| Quote: |
| In Canada, almost a million citizens are waiting for necessary surgery and more than a million Canadians can't find a regular doctor. |
Why does this number sound absurd to me. If correct it would mean that 3 per cent of the Canadian population are presently so ill that they require a necessary surgery and can't get it. 3 per cent? If there were just as many who could get the surgery that would mean 6 per cent of the population are currently sick enough to require surgery. That's 1 in 16 people. You gotta be kidding. And sure, finding a doctor in a rural area is difficult for all the same reasons finding a native speaking teacher in rural Korea is difficult. No one wants to live in the boonies. But again, one million people can�t find a family doctor. That number just sounds way too high for me. |
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Mosley
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2007 2:45 am Post subject: |
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| Where has the Fraser Institute claimed that a 55% tax bracket exists in Canada? |
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TEFLPRAHA
Joined: 26 Jan 2007
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| Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2007 11:50 pm Post subject: |
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"Taxes ARE high in Canada. But nobody pays a "premium" over and above income and sales taxes for health care coverage. I've never heard of that, unless the person is referring to a premium for drug coverage with a private company. But that's voluntary. "
This isn't true. In BC, there is the MSP (Medical Services Plan). You have to pay for basic medical coverage, based on your income level. This is the basic coverage, not additional through another insurance company. If you are poor, a student, etc - then you don't have to pay. The cost for MSP doesn't cover everything. There are many user fees, for Physiotherapy, Chiropractic, and Massage, to name a few.
Also, my friend was interviewed by a doctor, to determine if he would accept her and her family as patients. Depending on where you live, it can be hard to find a family doctor. Though, as stated by someone above, many people do not have family doctors, but use "walk-in" clinics. |
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Manner of Speaking
Joined: 09 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 4:33 am Post subject: |
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| TELEPRAHA wrote: |
| Manner of Speaking wrote: |
| Taxes ARE high in Canada. But nobody pays a "premium" over and above income and sales taxes for health care coverage. I've never heard of that, unless the person is referring to a premium for drug coverage with a private company. But that's voluntary. |
This isn't true. In BC, there is the MSP (Medical Services Plan). You have to pay for basic medical coverage, based on your income level. This is the basic coverage, not additional through another insurance company. If you are poor, a student, etc - then you don't have to pay. The cost for MSP doesn't cover everything. There are many user fees, for Physiotherapy, Chiropractic, and Massage, to name a few.
Also, my friend was interviewed by a doctor, to determine if he would accept her and her family as patients. Depending on where you live, it can be hard to find a family doctor. Though, as stated by someone above, many people do not have family doctors, but use "walk-in" clinics. |
I'm from eastern Canada, and there are no premiums on provincial health insurance here; at the time I wrote this I wasn't aware there were premiums levied on some western provinces. As someone else pointed out there is one in Alberta as well. |
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