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loose_ends
Joined: 23 Jul 2007
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 Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 2:03 am Post subject: |
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| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
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I do not dislike everything about the american government.
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That's too easy. Please specify. |
fair enough�
Because I�m not American, I personally feel I only have the legitimate right to judge their foreign policies. Although I may disagree with certain internal policies, it really is none of my business at the end of the day.
I am an advocate of democracy, which means I am a fan of American democracy and all the mechanisms it entails. In fact, I wouldn�t be surprised if someone claimed America does it the best. I do think all democracies in the world, to an extent, are influenced by forces that the general public is relatively unaware of (national/global elite). So this criticism extents not just to America, but to all other democratic countries as well.
The only thing I really dislike about the American government is post 9-11 foreign policy. I think it was built around a myth to deceive America, and really, the whole world. I think anything that is linked to reactions of 9-11 is suspect of criminal activity. I don't think the American government as an institute is criminal, rather, certain criminals have infiltrated certain elements of the system. I think most people in the world, including Americans, are generally unaware of this.
I think being critical of post 9-11 American foreign policy is of most importance for citizens of all nations. It is a �global� war on terror after all.
I also believe, as a citizen of a different country, I have an equal responsibility to be critical of my own government and its involvement in post 9-11 foreign policy. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 7:11 am Post subject: |
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| Because I�m not American, I personally feel I only have the legitimate right to judge their foreign policies |
I stopped here.
You appeared on the forum for the first time (at least to my awareness) to defend the idea of 9/11 being an inside job. When you square that position with the quoted position above, then I'll finish reading your post. |
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loose_ends
Joined: 23 Jul 2007
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| Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 7:50 am Post subject: |
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| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
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| Because I�m not American, I personally feel I only have the legitimate right to judge their foreign policies |
I stopped here.
You appeared on the forum for the first time (at least to my awareness) to defend the idea of 9/11 being an inside job. When you square that position with the quoted position above, then I'll finish reading your post. |
although 9-11 occured on american soil, americans were not the only victims. and since 9-11, americans are not the only soldiers that have died in fight against 'terror'.
so i don't consider this a strictly internal event. like i said, it is a 'global' war on terror, stemming from an event that took the lives of people from many different nations.
simply put, the events of 9-11 affect my life; therefore, i am justified in being critical of the event.
ok? |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 10:52 am Post subject: |
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| CHOMSKY: The concept "anti-American" is an interesting one. The counterpart is used only in totalitarian states or military dictatorships... |
Problematic. Several govts, and here I will cite Salvador Allende's in Chile (1970-1973), employed "anti-nation" or "anti-Chilean" in their propaganda against their opponents, in this case the Chilean right, from start to finish, against any opinion contrary to the far left's opinions -- that is, the militant Socialists who dominated much of the administration's positions and actions.
Yet I do not think that Chomsky would call Allende's govt a totalitarian state or military dictatorship.
This is probably a case that shows, again, Chomsky's very limited understanding of actual ground conditions abroad. No background in any area studies program and no evidence that he reads any foreign-langauge source-materials. He therefore cannot take in anything but what he gets from the English-speaking world and especially the so-called New Left from which he hails.
Also interesting to see this poster citing Chomsky as an authority when I distinctly recall him launching a sustained and systematic attack against him in one particular thread when he called himself "BJWD." "I can't believe he is the most cited living academic on earth," you complained. Yet here you are citing him. You go to some rather strange extremes, BJWD. Indeed, you probably really ought to go through that thread and rewrite everything you said, especially where you were enthusiastically agreeing with me, to better resonate with your current revisionism of yourself. 
In any case, the thing is not difficult to grasp, and it has nothing to do with reasonable criticism: anyone who chronically exceeds the bounds of reasonable criticism, anyone who typically scapegoats America for the world's ills, and anyone who evinces clear commitment to searching for and seizing pretexts that will assist them in their mission to attack and/or discredit the United States, and when this is all they can see, say, or do, then they are antiAmerican. They tend to sneer when they speak. They also tend to ridicule "antiAmericanism" as if it were merely a paranoid construct. And they especially tend to squirm and object anytime anyone says anything even remotely good about the United States.
People holding such views, of course, will move to attack what I have said. Whatever. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 12:15 pm Post subject: |
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Basically, Chomsky's argument boils down to this: the Soviets used anti-Soviet as a characterization of their opponents, so when Americans use it in any way, shape, or form, they are totalitarian.
Nevermind that 'Soviet' is not a race/nationality of people but a political party, whereas Americans are a nationality.
I agree that accusing someone of being anti-American should not be used lightly, but I'm sorry, anti-Semitism is a real phenomenon. Since Chomsky has made a living off of apologizing for atrocities from the Khmer Rouge to Srebrinca, I'm not surprised to hear he thinks the term 'anti-American' is unacceptable. |
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loose_ends
Joined: 23 Jul 2007
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| Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 6:57 pm Post subject: |
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gopher wrote:
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| anyone who chronically exceeds the bounds of reasonable criticism, anyone who typically scapegoats America for the world's ills, and anyone who evinces clear commitment to searching for and seizing pretexts that will assist them in their mission to attack and/or discredit the United States, and when this is all they can see, say, or do, then they are antiAmerican. |
At the moment it seems your definition is completely subjective.
In an attempt to find greater objectivity, could you please identify what the bounds of reasonable criticism are? |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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loose_ends
Joined: 23 Jul 2007
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| Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 7:16 pm Post subject: |
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I'm not squirming gopher. I admitted earlier in this thread that I DO think anti-Americanism exists.
I can give a very clear definition of an anti-American. hit me up if you'd like it.
The example you gave:
You are right. The title of the thread is misleading. It can be defined as propaganda quite easily.
Assuming the article in the thread is not disinformation, would the thread be anti-American if it were titled differently?
Lets say, "Man gives details of torture by US forces", or something like that? |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 8:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
Also interesting to see this poster citing Chomsky as an authority when I distinctly recall him launching a sustained and systematic attack against him in one particular thread when he called himself "BJWD." "I can't believe he is the most cited living academic on earth," you complained. Yet here you are citing him. You go to some rather strange extremes, BJWD. Indeed, you probably really ought to go through that thread and rewrite everything you said, especially where you were enthusiastically agreeing with me, to better resonate with your current revisionism of yourself. |
Right. Here is our issue with this. I am not a child, and can say that on balance Chomsky is extremely unfair to the USA and at the same time agree with his position on this topic. You, gopher, are a child. And a very insecure child. And you lack fundamental critical reasoning abilities, as we see in my trapping of you above.
If Michal Moore said the sky was blue I would agree with him, because it is. This despite my general disagreement with the man on most other topics. But sometimes right is right. Right?
I bow in front of your ability to use the search function. |
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igotthisguitar
Joined: 08 Apr 2003
Location: South Korea (Permanent Vacation)
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| Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 8:39 pm Post subject: |
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Congress Eases Access To Public Records
By LAURIE KELLMAN, Associated Press Writer
WASHINGTON - Congress on Tuesday struck back at the Bush administration's trend toward secrecy since the 2001 terrorist attacks, passing legislation to toughen the Freedom of Information Act and increasing penalties on agencies that don't comply.
The White House would not say whether President Bush will sign the legislation, which unanimously passed the House by voice vote Tuesday a few days after it sailed through the Senate. Without Bush's signature, the bill would become law during the congressional recess that begins next week.
It would be the first makeover of the FOIA in a decade, among other things bringing nonproprietary information held by government contractors under the law. The legislation also is aimed at reversing an order by former Attorney General John Ashcroft in the wake of the attacks, in which he instructed agencies to lean against releasing information when there was "uncertainty" about how doing so would affect "national security".
The overwhelming congressional support for the legislation owes in part to administration allies who successfully insisted on stripping out language explicitly reversing Ashcroft's order.
MORE ...
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071219/ap_on_go_co/freedom_of_information |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 11:32 pm Post subject: |
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| loose_ends wrote: |
| Let[']s say, "Man gives details of torture by US forces," or something like that? |
I would not see this as antiAmerican in the least -- nor would I call anyone who denounced a specific policy such as this one as antiAmerican, either.
AntiAmericanism has nothing to do with good criticism or even radical conclusions. AntiAmericanism has to do with what I described, above. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 11:37 pm Post subject: |
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But that is not what you said about Chomsky, BJWD.
You said he was dishonest and a liar. In fact, you dismissed him outright: "Chomsky is just another cog in an industry of university radicals, each trying to one-up the other with claims of American evil," you said.
So keep bowing. I will tell you when you are done. |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 11:39 pm Post subject: |
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So, if he said the sky was blue I would be forced to disagree because "in a previous thread" I said he was dishonest?
Are you actually that stupid? |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 11:42 pm Post subject: |
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He is not describing the sky's color, BJWD. And you know it. He is discussing antiAmericanism and maneuvering to undermine and/or discredit his critics.
And I do not believe you are stupid, either. Rather, you have executed a perfect flip-flop on Chomsky and his views regarding America. And you are doing a little maneuvering yourself to conceal or deny it. |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 11:46 pm Post subject: |
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What's with the BJWD stuff? Is this your "gotcha"? Dude, grow the *beep* up. Had I wanted a new persona I would have started a new account.
let's go over how this got started
1) I posted an quote by Chomsky
2) You linked to a time I said I dislike Chomsky
3) I pointed out how damned stupid it was for you to do that
Bizarre.
Did you get kicked out of grad school and return to Korea for more esl? |
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