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bluelake
Joined: 01 Dec 2005
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 Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2007 12:40 am Post subject: |
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loose_ends
Joined: 23 Jul 2007
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| Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2007 2:51 am Post subject: |
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| thepeel wrote: |
| Julius wrote: |
Its their land.
I suggest the international community put sanctions on the US until they hand back what they stole from them. |
That is nonsense. "God" didn't give them the land, nor did they (this tribe) never use violence to defend their land or expand their land before whites arrived. Indians were busy killing eachother over land long before whites arrived. To say it is theirs is picking an arbitrary point of time as an "authentic" ownership period. Be very careful that you don't absorb the "noble savage" assumptions.
The "international community", by the by, is largely composed of nations that have done and are doing the exact same thing. |
While some prescribe to the mentioned assumption, many do not, and still see a very disturbing historical relationship that has caused horrible results.
I would pass the same warning right back to you.
So, if you were the master of the universe, how would you solve the problem without a split from the US? |
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djsmnc
Joined: 20 Jan 2003
Location: Dave's ESL Cafe
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| Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2007 7:04 am Post subject: |
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| loose_ends wrote: |
| thepeel wrote: |
| Julius wrote: |
Its their land.
I suggest the international community put sanctions on the US until they hand back what they stole from them. |
That is nonsense. "God" didn't give them the land, nor did they (this tribe) never use violence to defend their land or expand their land before whites arrived. Indians were busy killing eachother over land long before whites arrived. To say it is theirs is picking an arbitrary point of time as an "authentic" ownership period. Be very careful that you don't absorb the "noble savage" assumptions.
The "international community", by the by, is largely composed of nations that have done and are doing the exact same thing. |
While some prescribe to the mentioned assumption, many do not, and still see a very disturbing historical relationship that has caused horrible results.
I would pass the same warning right back to you.
So, if you were the master of the universe, how would you solve the problem without a split from the US? |
I would build a bunch of section 8 housing there and offer low wage jobs to maintain the housing and tell them "In this cold world in which we live, countries and territories were created through war, money, and deception. Unfortunately, your people were on the losing end of the battle, but here we are offering you an equal opportunity to acheive success in this modern world. If you go to school, work and study hard, and lay off the drugs, alcohol, and other excess that will lead you astray from your goals, you will have a higher probability for success. Good luck in the pursuit of happiness that you share with other Americans!" |
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Julius
Joined: 27 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2007 7:39 am Post subject: |
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| djsmnc wrote: |
I would build a bunch of section 8 housing there and offer low wage jobs to maintain the housing and tell them "In this cold world in which we live, countries and territories were created through war, money, and deception. Unfortunately, your people were on the losing end of the battle, but here we are offering you an equal opportunity to acheive success in this modern world. If you go to school, work and study hard, and lay off the drugs, alcohol, and other excess that will lead you astray from your goals, you will have a higher probability for success. Good luck in the pursuit of happiness that you share with other Americans!" |
They've been there 12000 years or whatever.
You, 500. Or less.
I think its worth learning something from their culture and knowledge of the land. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2007 9:08 am Post subject: |
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| Julius wrote: |
I think its worth learning something from their culture and knowledge of the land. |
What specifically? |
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loose_ends
Joined: 23 Jul 2007
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| Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2007 6:44 pm Post subject: |
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| djsmnc wrote: |
| loose_ends wrote: |
| thepeel wrote: |
| Julius wrote: |
Its their land.
I suggest the international community put sanctions on the US until they hand back what they stole from them. |
That is nonsense. "God" didn't give them the land, nor did they (this tribe) never use violence to defend their land or expand their land before whites arrived. Indians were busy killing eachother over land long before whites arrived. To say it is theirs is picking an arbitrary point of time as an "authentic" ownership period. Be very careful that you don't absorb the "noble savage" assumptions.
The "international community", by the by, is largely composed of nations that have done and are doing the exact same thing. |
While some prescribe to the mentioned assumption, many do not, and still see a very disturbing historical relationship that has caused horrible results.
I would pass the same warning right back to you.
So, if you were the master of the universe, how would you solve the problem without a split from the US? |
I would build a bunch of section 8 housing there and offer low wage jobs to maintain the housing and tell them "In this cold world in which we live, countries and territories were created through war, money, and deception. Unfortunately, your people were on the losing end of the battle, but here we are offering you an equal opportunity to acheive success in this modern world. If you go to school, work and study hard, and lay off the drugs, alcohol, and other excess that will lead you astray from your goals, you will have a higher probability for success. Good luck in the pursuit of happiness that you share with other Americans!" |
I don't know much about the Native American situation.
I do know a lot about the First Nations of B.C. though.
You know they can't legally sell the fish they catch. That strikes me as being odd because it was one of their leading industries before and just after colonization.
So ya, catch all the fish you want, but remember, you gotta eat them all.
Pretty f'd up in my book.
Oh, and those houses they are given; well, they don't actually count as personal equity. That makes it hard to borrow money and well, live the American/Canadian dream.
And if they decide to renounce status, they have to make their way into a world of preconceived first impressions.
on a different note, a lot of First Nations are respected in the art world. Also, BC has re-opended treaty negotiations. actually, for a lot of First Nations groups, it would be their first treaty. |
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djsmnc
Joined: 20 Jan 2003
Location: Dave's ESL Cafe
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| Posted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 5:12 am Post subject: |
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| loose_ends wrote: |
| djsmnc wrote: |
| loose_ends wrote: |
| thepeel wrote: |
| Julius wrote: |
Its their land.
I suggest the international community put sanctions on the US until they hand back what they stole from them. |
That is nonsense. "God" didn't give them the land, nor did they (this tribe) never use violence to defend their land or expand their land before whites arrived. Indians were busy killing eachother over land long before whites arrived. To say it is theirs is picking an arbitrary point of time as an "authentic" ownership period. Be very careful that you don't absorb the "noble savage" assumptions.
The "international community", by the by, is largely composed of nations that have done and are doing the exact same thing. |
While some prescribe to the mentioned assumption, many do not, and still see a very disturbing historical relationship that has caused horrible results.
I would pass the same warning right back to you.
So, if you were the master of the universe, how would you solve the problem without a split from the US? |
I would build a bunch of section 8 housing there and offer low wage jobs to maintain the housing and tell them "In this cold world in which we live, countries and territories were created through war, money, and deception. Unfortunately, your people were on the losing end of the battle, but here we are offering you an equal opportunity to acheive success in this modern world. If you go to school, work and study hard, and lay off the drugs, alcohol, and other excess that will lead you astray from your goals, you will have a higher probability for success. Good luck in the pursuit of happiness that you share with other Americans!" |
I don't know much about the Native American situation.
I do know a lot about the First Nations of B.C. though.
You know they can't legally sell the fish they catch. That strikes me as being odd because it was one of their leading industries before and just after colonization.
So ya, catch all the fish you want, but remember, you gotta eat them all.
Pretty f'd up in my book.
Oh, and those houses they are given; well, they don't actually count as personal equity. That makes it hard to borrow money and well, live the American/Canadian dream.
And if they decide to renounce status, they have to make their way into a world of preconceived first impressions.
on a different note, a lot of First Nations are respected in the art world. Also, BC has re-opended treaty negotiations. actually, for a lot of First Nations groups, it would be their first treaty. |
I can see making concessions. Sure. If they sold fish, they should be allowed to sell fish as is their tradition. Holding them back from that type of stuff is really just selfish and inhospitable.
There's no reason to mistreat natives or anyone else. However, when any group tries to get reparations for stuff that happened in previous generations, they don't deserve a penny. They just have to accept what they have and make the best of it, because their insecurity has nothing to do with anyone else. They can start by trying to solve current problems rather than former ones. |
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Bryan
Joined: 29 Oct 2007
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| Posted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 6:23 am Post subject: |
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The land isn't "native" land. Ethnicities don't own land by nature of their genetic heritage.
Otherwise, I should own land in Poland and Croatia, it being "my land" since my ancestors were once from there.
The Lakotans involved are primitive tribal racists. They are incapable of thinking outside of their skin colour, which is the most primitive form of collectivism possible--racism.
Why not establish a country based on individual rights, rather than racism? Oh right, because that already exists, and it was called The United States of America. They want to secede from that accomplishment for illegitimate reasons. |
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Bryan
Joined: 29 Oct 2007
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| Posted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 6:25 am Post subject: |
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| Julius wrote: |
They've been there 12000 years or whatever.
You, 500. Or less. |
No person has been in North America 12,000 years, because the oldest people who have ever existed die a few decades after 100.
Like I said before, just because your primitive stone age ancestors walked over a piece of land does not make it yours. Otherwise Europe and India owe me land right now.
Property is created and it is an individual accomplishment, not a racial one. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 6:39 am Post subject: |
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| Bryan wrote: |
Why not establish a country based on individual rights, rather than racism? Oh right, because that already exists, and it was called The United States of America. They want to secede from that accomplishment for illegitimate reasons. |
ROFL. I like the new guy. |
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Julius
Joined: 27 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 7:37 am Post subject: |
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| Bryan wrote: |
The Lakotans involved are primitive tribal racists. They are incapable of thinking outside of their skin colour, which is the most primitive form of collectivism possible--racism. |
You're sounding like the victim now? Poor you. Realistically, its probably not really possible for you to know how it might feel to have had your culture erased and be a second class citizen in your own country, dying by the age of 44.
| Bryan wrote: |
| Ethnicities don't own land by nature of their genetic heritage. |
So 12000 years of residence means nothing in your book? Thats nice. How about Australian aborigines. 40.000 years enough?
| Kuros wrote: |
| What specifically? |
Well they did manage to live there for millenia without polluting or harming it. Unless you can confirm they did in fact cause massive oil spills, the extinction of several species, and conduct nuclear tests in there time.
How long do you think the white settlers era will last by comparison? |
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huffdaddy
Joined: 25 Nov 2005
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| Posted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 8:00 am Post subject: |
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*delete*
Last edited by huffdaddy on Sat Dec 22, 2007 9:19 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 8:13 am Post subject: |
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| Julius wrote: |
| Kuros wrote: |
| What specifically? |
Well they did manage to live there for millenia without polluting or harming it. Unless you can confirm they did in fact cause massive oil spills, the extinction of several species, and conduct nuclear tests in there time.
How long do you think the white settlers era will last by comparison? |
Wow, you're sanctimonius for a South African. We're not settlers, we've been here a long time, some of us. The Afrikaaners, having been there for only a few dozen years, were settlers. We're Americans. |
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Czarjorge
Joined: 01 May 2007
Location: I now have the same moustache, and it is glorious.
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| Posted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 9:55 am Post subject: |
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Wow, this thread devolved quickly, didn't it.
Here's a reason, however wacky, for the propping up of certain groups within the US, rather as part of the US or just within the geographical mass known as the US...
If there ever was an apocalypse that wasn't related to nuclear war groups that maintain old traditions would be able to transmit useful information on survival outside of a postmodern/modern world. For example, natives that maintain their traditions would be better equipped to survive, and might share that information with outsiders. Then again they might just kill outsiders, who know? I did say it was a wacky hypothetical.
This is the main reason I defend the Amish. They represent a knowledge base that, while no longer applicable to daily life now, would be useful if society ever disintegrated. |
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Julius
Joined: 27 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 9:57 am Post subject: |
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I see Venezuela and Bolivia have already established diplomatic ties with the new nation.
I'm sure Nelson mandela and all the freedom-loving nations will soon follow.
Long live the real America.
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