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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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 Posted: Mon Dec 24, 2007 12:19 am Post subject: |
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| I agree that fear of this is exaggerated. The information is available through many sources. The focus needs to be on protecting people from the potential abuse of this information now being easily available. |
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Sleepy in Seoul
Joined: 15 May 2004
Location: Going in ever decreasing circles until I eventually disappear up my own fundament - in NZ
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| Posted: Mon Dec 24, 2007 12:45 am Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
You sound like you believe that it is a simple matter separating terrorists from the herd.
...
Regards people and entities gathering, processing, storing, buying and selling your personal information for a variety of purposes (American national-securing representing merely one), you also sound undeniably uninformed if not naive. Were you born somehwere, do you hold a passport, national identity card or social-security number, or drivers' license, have you ever filled out healthcare and/or criminal history forms for any school, employer, or insurance company, did you graduate from schools that maintain records, have you ever been fingerprinted (by the armed forces, police, or any employer such as a school district in your country or another country), do you maintain bank accounts, write checks, use debit or credit cards, take out and repay any kind of loan whatsoever, use cell phones, make international telephone calls, pay rent and other bills, or have a MySpace page, or post messages on this or another message board from your own computer, by the way...?
This is very, very old news, Sleepy_in_Seoul. Wake up. The technology has changed. The grid remains as it was, only enhanced, more reliable, and probably much faster. As I said, above: good. As an American, I wholly support this.
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I don't. But I don't believe that it is a good thing for a country not my own to collect my data (any of it) for its own purposes, especially when that country has an appalling record of keeping data secure. The Pentagon was apparently hacked 161,000 times in 1996 alone. In 1999, a hacker was able to obtain part of the Space Station source code from NASA. Although they were a wee while ago, you seem to be forgetting that technology is not restricted to security agencies alone. Hackers seem (miraculously) to be able to keep up with technology as well. To deny that is ignorant.
| Gopher wrote: |
| If I did not know any better -- and I am not certain that I do -- I might conclude that you are one of those who not only denies that antiAmericanism exists, but terrorism, too. |
I don't know what you mean by antiAmericanism so I can't even try to deny that it exists. If you care to explain what you mean, then I will give my opinion. As far as terrorism, only a fool would try to say it doesn't exist. A dictionary definition of terrorism is:
| Quote: |
| violent action for political purposes |
http://dictionary.cambridge.org/define.asp?key=82104&dict=CALD
Under that definition, the U.S. government is a terrorist organisation. How can I deny that it exists?
| Gopher wrote: |
| In any case, please refresh my memory and show me where I have used "terrorism" to manipulate or "as an excuse for America" on this board or elsewhere. |
In a previous post, you stated:
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| And by the way, planning and supporting terrorist acts against Americans and American interests from abroad are basic human rights violations, too. We are at war. We task and retask our intelligence agencies -- sometimes as often as technological developments occur. Deal with it. |
Here you are using terrorism as an excuse for the U.S. government to task and retask your intelligence agencies, which would presumably include taking biometric data from anyone in the world they deem fit. And that's only from your previous post. Do you want any more examples? |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Mon Dec 24, 2007 12:58 am Post subject: |
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Sleepy,
I don't understand what you are reacting so strongly to. In the last couple of decades, our privacy went out the window. It is not the work of any government or agency. It is the nature of modern hitech society. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Mon Dec 24, 2007 1:08 am Post subject: |
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Sleepy_in_Seoul: it takes more than "political violence" to make "terrorism," and I think you know that. Also, yours is not a valid example, above. We are in a shooting war. Terrorist organizations and one or perhaps two govts that back them are involved. Sorry that this comes as news to you. But govts have always tasked and retasked their intelligence services under such circumstances.
Further, and again: the nature of the information-gathering remains totally unchanged; only the technology has changed. I personally know of corporations with better capabilities than the American govt, by the way. I am referring to player-tracking systems, facial-recognition technology, and biometrics security-systems and inter-corporation information networks in Las Vegas and everywhere else casinos exist. Been fully operational for over a decade and the majority of their targets are other-than-Americans. And let us not even discuss the organized-crime units -- very much related and interlinked with the casinos -- and systems fed, state, and local agencies have in play. Or private-investigative agencies like Griffin or Biometrica, or what they offer and indeed do, worldwide.
In any case, what else have you got? I think you are wading into something that goes way over your head.
| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
| ...modern hitech society. |
Why introduce reason into a discussion, all-too-typical on this board, where another poster is perfectly satisfied scapegoating America, "a terrorist state," for this?
So worketh the lynch mob. Standing between this mob and its target will only provoke additional nonsense. Bear witness...
Last edited by Gopher on Mon Dec 24, 2007 1:45 am; edited 4 times in total |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Mon Dec 24, 2007 1:34 am Post subject: |
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| It is the nature of modern hitech society. |
It occured to me to add: I sympathize with your overall concern. It is scary that even Miss Maudie at the Public Library has access to stuff we might wish she didn't, but she does.
I want to restate: Your valid concerns should focus on protection in this new world. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Mon Dec 24, 2007 2:59 am Post subject: |
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| Sleepy in Seoul wrote: |
| [ But I don't believe that it is a good thing for a country not my own to collect my data (any of it) for its own purposes, especially when that country has an appalling record of keeping data secure. ? |
So why would you come to a foreign country to teach when you have to provide some of that data for its own purposes... |
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Nowhere Man
Joined: 08 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Mon Dec 24, 2007 3:14 am Post subject: ... |
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Mars could be in for an asteroid hit.
If the asteroid strikes Mars, it will probably hit near the equator close to where the rover Opportunity is exploring.
A newly discovered hunk of space rock has a 1 in 75 chance of slamming into the red planet on January 30, scientists said Thursday. |
What bitter, sarcastic, sneering.
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| So worketh the lynch mob. Standing between this mob and its target will only provoke additional nonsense. Bear witness... |
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Sleepy in Seoul
Joined: 15 May 2004
Location: Going in ever decreasing circles until I eventually disappear up my own fundament - in NZ
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| Posted: Mon Dec 24, 2007 5:24 am Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Sleepy in Seoul wrote: |
| But I don't believe that it is a good thing for a country not my own to collect my data (any of it) for its own purposes, especially when that country has an appalling record of keeping data secure. ? |
So why would you come to a foreign country to teach when you have to provide some of that data for its own purposes... |
That was my choice. Having data taken and kept without my consent and probably without my knowledge is a very different thing to me.
| Gopher wrote: |
| Sleepy_in_Seoul: it takes more than "political violence" to make "terrorism," and I think you know that. Also, yours is not a valid example, above. We are in a shooting war. Terrorist organizations and one or perhaps two govts that back them are involved. Sorry that this comes as news to you. But govts have always tasked and retasked their intelligence services under such circumstances. |
Yes, it is a shooting war. A shooting war that your country started. I am well aware of it. I am also aware that the U.S. has an appalling record of data security and that hackers seem to be able to keep up with technology with few problems.
Given that the U.S. administration is so hopelessly incompetent that approximately 190,000 assault rifles and pistols have been lost by U.S. forces in Iraq, $2.3 billion has gone missing and the Pentagon lost all but 36 of an approximately 200-page classified chemical-detection log during the Gulf War, I'm just a tiny bit concerned. Do you think that my records are more important than classified U.S. files? If the U.S. government can't look after their own classified files, what makes you think that they will be able to look after my data? Or your data?
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9401E2DB1230F935A35750C0A961958260&sec=&spon= |
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Mon Dec 24, 2007 7:40 am Post subject: |
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| Sleepy in Seoul wrote: |
| Given that the U.S. administration is so hopelessly incompetent that approximately 190,000 assault rifles and pistols have been lost by U.S. forces in Iraq, $2.3 billion has gone missing and the Pentagon lost all but 36 of an approximately 200-page classified chemical-detection log during the Gulf War, I'm just a tiny bit concerned. |
For the record, that was $2.3 TRILLION that the Pentagon cannot account for, according to Donald Rumsfeld at the news conference he gave on Sept. 10, 2001.
But that was just money. Surely your personal information is worth more than that, Sleepy, so don't worry, they'll take really good care of it.  |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Mon Dec 24, 2007 9:52 am Post subject: |
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Osama bin Laden, the Taliban, and 9/11 precipitated and induced the current Middle-Eastern wars. Other minor wars like the Hezbollah-Israeli one have also occurred. Iran and Syria play their own role in consciously fueling the fire via their own covert ops for their own purposes. The W. Bush Administration has managed the affair badly. Not surprised to see you survey this panorama and then hear you blaming America and only America for the entire thing. (That is not fair; you probably blame Israel just as bitterly.)
Look, the bottom line is this: we do not care what you think about the upgraded FBI database. So generalize, complain, and cast aspersions all you like -- from the irrelevant or nearly-irrelevant periphery where you stand. Biometrics databases are done deeds. The private sector and not govts led the way. This is the world we live in. Blaming America for it is not going to help you deal with it -- unless you are an utter simpleton, satisfied with simple but false answers, which you may unfortunately be.
| Sleepy in Seoul wrote: |
| Having data taken and kept without my consent and probably without my knowledge is a very different thing to me. |
You think you submitted this information (personal identification, criminal records, and educational transcripts with all the data that each contains) to the Koreans and that is it? Most govts liaise with other govts, through diplomats, Interpol, and/or intelligence services. You cannot escape the grid, Sleepy_in_Seoul, and the American govt hardly created it. Blame the Mongols: I understand they invented the passport.
And again, are you a consumer of anything? Do you use any kind of grocery-savings card when you shop? Do you use credit? Do you use Google or buy on the internet? Do you use an iPod?
Are you that naive?
Last edited by Gopher on Mon Dec 24, 2007 11:10 am; edited 3 times in total |
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Czarjorge
Joined: 01 May 2007
Location: I now have the same moustache, and it is glorious.
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| Posted: Mon Dec 24, 2007 10:35 am Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
Who is "trumpeting the merits of the U.S.?" Still trapped in that ridiculous dichotomy, I see.
You have been doing so ever since I started lurking on the CE forum. Can you honestly say that you don't defend "America" on this board? And that's fine, I find myself doing the same thing at times, but the positions you defend often represent the worst of the US, not the best. And where do you get the "dichotomy" you speak of?
The American govt -- that is the Republican-controlled executive branch and the Democratic-controlled Congress that funds it, backed by the American electorate and taxpayers (and this is where "FBI gets the right," incidentally) -- is upgrading its information-gathering and analytical capability. I support it. No more no less.
I don't take issue with that. I don't even completely disagree with the right of the US to do this. I think it's a slippery slope, and I worry about what this information could do in the wrong hands, including the possibility that the "wrong hands" have been, are and might be again the people in charge of this country.
You may want to come here and bitterly denounce this evil deed along with the rest of the wild-eyed, hysterical internet community -- while stubbornly ignoring any and all others who do the same exact thing. You may even want to spend time setting up threads that will encourage others to ridicule America, like Tiger Beer of late.
See above. What I do take issue with is the manner of arguments you make. As I pointed out in my post. As you ignored. It's my weakness that I feel the need to respond to someone who seems to be, based on their posts, irrational. You refute specious arguments by arguing speciously. It bothers me logically. You seem to take any vocal disagreement with the policies of the US as "anti-Americanism." The US is not, and should not, be a "you're with us or against us" kind of country. Republics don't work that way, especially not democratic republics.
See?
But just because I have no interest in joining your antiAmerican mob, that does not mean that I am here "trumpeting the merits of the U.S.," moron. Incredibly, that seems to be all that you and your correligionists here can imagine.
Again, see above. Perhaps its more of an antiGopher mob, as your posts represent the worst kind of "Americanism." And don't call names, and avoid using terms you don't understand. Then again, the use, however misspelled, of "coreligionist" could be telling. You view political philosophy as a question of belief, and those that don't agree with you are 'heathens' that must be 'converted.' How often does convoluting the issues you discuss in real life work for you?
| Czarjorge wrote: |
| And stop saying 'American' as if... |
Relax. As I already explained to you, it ain't slang, baby...
| Gopher wrote: |
| Sure, the United States is "America." We call ourselves "Americans." So does everybody else. Take "the American Bar Association," "the American Stock Exchange," "the American Broadcasting Corporation," the American Historical Review, the Journal of American History, or An American Werewolf in London, for example. And who do you think "antiAmericanism" refers to, Nicholas, the entire western hemisphere...? |
If you want to join any number of Latin-American nationalists ("jorge" strongly suggests that you were born one) and call yourself "a United-Statsian" or a "North-American," be my guest.
No, I'm a whitey, though you might be the type to think jews don't count as white. In spanish the term is "norteamericano," though that seemingly includes both Mexico and Canada, though the term doesn't subsume those countries. The universal acceptance of the slang doesn't make it more appropriate. I believe this is one of the reasons the world has a dislike of the US. 'We' seem to think that the Earth is ours, to do with as we please, because we're the only superpower left. Word choice and usage reflects the people and society that use those words. Read Noam Chomsky's work on linguistics, not the political stuff that might make your head explode, and learn.
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Please learn to think, read and process what you respond to. Otherwise you'll just become boring and irrelevant in these discussions. A politically right wing viewpoint is useful on this board, but not when it comes from someone so easily dismissed.[/b] |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Mon Dec 24, 2007 10:46 am Post subject: |
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Not only does he invest time and energy responding to my "boring and irrelevant posts." He lectures me on Spanish and Jews and recommends I read Chomsky, too.
Classic.
Nicky scratched his head and pondered...
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| ...where do you get the "dichotomy" you speak of? |
ROFL. I have only explained it a few dozen times. Here we go again: you and your coreligionists [without the typo, at your service, Nicky] can only imagine two possibilities: we either denounce America and its crimes or we must be defending America. That is, antiAmerican or proAmerican. That you angrily denounce W. Bush for his "with-us-or-against-us" dichotomy -- how about "binary" if "dichotomy" is too difficult for you? -- is another matter.
Just because I take exception to those who scapegoat and denounce America for such things as biometric databases does not mean that I necessarily wave the flag and sing God Bless America involuntarily. But, alas, that is certainly how you paint me.
Why? This childish binary that dominates your thinking, that is why.
Last edited by Gopher on Mon Dec 24, 2007 10:53 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Czarjorge
Joined: 01 May 2007
Location: I now have the same moustache, and it is glorious.
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| Posted: Mon Dec 24, 2007 10:50 am Post subject: |
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Yeah, I know, but I think that's the last one. I've become bored with both you and thepeel, which is sad, as I enjoy this back and forth.
I think I'm going to take on the persona of the reasoned Right. It might be fun. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Mon Dec 24, 2007 10:50 am Post subject: |
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For the record, I don't like it. But personal information is everywhere. That's the price of the information age. You like the convenience of shopping online? Guess what, those credit cards have all your info on them. I line up with Ya-Ta on this one, as so often happens.
| Sleepy in Seoul wrote: |
it is a country which has shown no regard for due process |
Wait, are you talking about the US? Look, I'll admit the CIA does some shady shit, but you're saying the US, in general, has no regard for due process.
Do you care to retract that claim, or shall I expose your utter ignorance? I got nothing else to do today. Anyone else who wants to take up his position, feel free.
Yes, I will use facts and real-world examples. This may be rough for you. Put on your tin-foil hat for protection. |
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Nowhere Man
Joined: 08 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Mon Dec 24, 2007 12:41 pm Post subject: ... |
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| Quote: |
| Here we go again: you and your coreligionists [without the typo, at your service, Nicky] can only imagine two possibilities: we either denounce America and its crimes or we must be defending America. |
Yeah. Gopher likes to talk about dichotomies, binary thinking, and black/white logic.
Then he'll start throwing around labels like Anti-American and Anti-Establishment.
Is he calling people names again?
A further argument against such a measure is that such government records would be susceptible to theft. Think VA records and the like.
Just because we've lost privacy doesn't mean we should facilitate losing more of it. |
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