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Troll_Bait
Joined: 04 Jan 2006
Location: [T]eaching experience doesn't matter much. -Lee Young-chan (pictured)
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 Posted: Sun Jun 17, 2007 12:58 am Post subject: |
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| Xian wrote: |
| I don't know what you previously said about those secular sources ... |
... because you never bothered to read them, even though I posted them more than once.
| Xian wrote: |
| What you have brought proves nothing. |
And how can you say that when you never bothered to read what I wrote?
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| Paul's writings are brilliant, but certain people obvsiously are expecting something from the writings that don't have to be there. Paul didn't write a Gospel, he wrote letters to churches addressing issues in each place. He spoke about theology and church issues and how to deal with heresy's within various churches. |
How can he possibly address what is and is not heresy without ever referring to Jesus' own words or actions?
Imagine the following conversation.
Potential Convert: Do we have to follow Jewish dietary laws?
St. Paul: Jesus said that it is not what goes into your mouth, but what comes out, that may defile you.
Potential Convert: Do we have to be vegarians?
St. Paul: Jesus ate fish.
Potential Convert: Would drinking alcohol be prohibited?
St. Paul: Jesus drank wine, but never to the point of inebriation.
And so forth.
Before his conversion, St. Paul persecuted Christians, right? Surely he must have known something about the people he was hunting. He must have learned a few details from some of his Christian victims.
Imagine my job is to hunt down Al-Q'aida operatives. Out of necessity, I would have to know about their radical brand of Islam to some degree. If I knew almost nothing about the life of Mohammed, I wouldn't be able to do my job very well, would I? No matter how distasteful I might find Mohammed's life, actions, or sayings, I would have to know about them.
| Xian wrote: |
"Troll_Bait"
Go read a good commentary or Bible dictionary or something from the other side of the fence if you want to bring some credible discussion to the argument. |
But Daddy, I already did my homework.  I read this book all by myself, without any help.
You might recall that it's been discussed here before.
http://forums.eslcafe.com/korea/viewtopic.php?t=53826&highlight=Ehrman
Here's something from Pages 152 & 153.
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In the second and third centuries there were, of course, Christians who believed that there was only one God, the creator of all that there is. Other people who called themselves Christian, however, insisted that there were two different gods -one of the Old Testament (a God of wrath) and one of the New Testament (a God of love and mercy). These were not simply two different facets of the same God; they were actually two different gods. Strikingly, the groups that made these claims -including the followers of Marcion- insisted that their views were the true teachings of Jesus and his apostles. Other groups, for example, of Gnostic Christians, insisted that there were not just two gods, but twelve. Others said thirty. Others said 365. All these groups claimed to be Christian, insisting that their views were true and had been taught by Jesus and his followers.
Why didn't these other groups simply read their New Testaments to see that they were wrong? It is because there was no New Testament. To be sure, all the books of the New Testament had been written by this time, but there were lots of other books as well, also claiming to be by Jesus' own apostles -other gospels, acts, epistles, and apocalypes haveing very different perspectives from those found in the books that eventually campe to be called the New Testament. The New Testament itself emerged out of these conflicts over God (or the gods), as one group of believers acquired more converts than all the others and decided which books should be included in the canon of scripture.
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I've seen this book at Kyobo bookstore, and so it's readily available in Korea. |
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Xian
Joined: 08 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Sun Jun 17, 2007 3:29 am Post subject: |
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| mindmetoo wrote: |
| Xian wrote: |
Research on the documents that maticulously go over the oldest copies of ancient texts and comparing them with newer ones and the ones that modern translation are translated from. Iliad is good, but it is just not proven as accurate. The Bible we read today is 98-99.5% accurate compared to the oldest documents. The errors are minor stylistic errors mostly. I haven't studied it extensively, but I did read up on it. Also an issue is the age difference between the actual dates of the documents and the oldest transcripts.
I have some notes about it, but I will only post them on request. |
Do you have a source on this? Preferably an academic source (ie maybe a peer reviewed journal). |
I read this quite a while ago, so I am sorry I cannot give an exact reference from my readings. I just did a quick search from something similar, but I cannot give something like a journal now as I just don't have access to anything like that. Here are a few links which contain some similar information.
http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/66
http://www.truthnet.org/Apologetics/6/ (this one appears quite interesting, inlcuding some history, but unfortunately it doesn't sight an author, so that does have less credibility, but from my quick overview it contains similar info to other sources). It also mentions the history of the King James Version and opposition from the Catholic church to the Bible being printed for other people to read it. A number of people lost their lives for this (at the hands of the church itself).
From google scholar search (including using terms like Masoretes and Iliad)
http://www.biblicaltheology.com/Research/MartinezR02.html
http://www.khaudio.org/freemp3/bibleetmessage.pdf (starting from page 7 - 11. For the % that I mentioned, go to page 10).
http://www.god-answers.org/Online_Tools/books/How_We_Got_the_Bible.pdf (This and others discuss error in translation also) |
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philipjames
Joined: 03 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2007 8:42 pm Post subject: |
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I think that this theory is one-hell-of-a-lot-more-likely than the nonsense Christians believe. We're in year 2007. In the year 20,007 there'll still be some Christians looking to the sky in anticipation of the return of their little Hebrew sky god.
Some people simply should not be given the vote. If you believe in gods of any kind you are unfit to help shape the destiny of the human species. |
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boatofcar
Joined: 20 Dec 2006
Location: Sheffield, UK
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| Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2007 1:13 am Post subject: |
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| philipjames wrote: |
Some people simply should not be given the vote. If you believe in gods of any kind you are unfit to help shape the destiny of the human species. |
Refusing the right to vote because of personal beliefs? I sure am glad there are tolerant atheists like you to show us neanderthal theists how backwards we are. |
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johndoe
Joined: 29 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2007 1:16 am Post subject: . |
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He is alive and not so well apparently; teaching English at a Korea Herald Kids branch. 
Last edited by johndoe on Fri Dec 28, 2007 1:22 am; edited 1 time in total |
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eamo
Joined: 08 Mar 2003
Location: Shepherd's Bush, 1964.
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| Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2007 1:17 am Post subject: Re: . |
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| johndoe wrote: |
| He is alive and not so well apparently; teaching English at a Korea Herald branch. |
So it's true. It's all about suffering. |
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twg
Joined: 02 Nov 2006
Location: Getting some fresh air...
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| Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2007 5:12 am Post subject: |
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| Wait, I though Jesus went to Utah and founded Mormonism? |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2007 3:35 pm Post subject: |
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| I'm leaning toward Jesus didn't even exist. |
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The Perfect Cup of Coffee
Joined: 17 Jun 2007
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| Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2007 5:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Thiuda wrote: |
| What does this have to do with working in Korea? Move this to another forum. |
Where should we move it to? The Off-Off Topic Forum? |
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