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Korean Job Discussion Forums
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venus
Joined: 25 Oct 2006
Location: Near Seoul
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 Posted: Tue Dec 25, 2007 10:38 pm Post subject: |
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^^
That's what SHE said!
Okay, I'm bored with that now, I'll stop. I wanted to do the whole page, but I wont. |
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adeline
Joined: 19 Nov 2007
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| Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2007 1:20 am Post subject: |
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my god venus that is getting really irritating.
as for the second scenario, if it were me, i would be pissed, i might even hurt you. and why shouldn't she be pissed? after all she was up just as late and still got up early while you were being a lazy bum, couldn't you have said when you got home late that you didn't think you could get up quite so early. i really don't think this is a cultural thing, its a personal thing. Some people are really serious about keeping dates, and some people don't even get the concept. Each of these piss off those of us in the middle. |
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Homer
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| Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2007 5:36 am Post subject: |
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I know ESL learners use that word, but homer man, have you forgotten that no one back home would use that word in that context?
If you must use the noun form (not commonly done) it'd be "a get together". I have a get together. Not an "appointment", that's too formal, for biz things... homer, you're really getting assimilated into Korean ways, even their ESL ways. lol |
Sorry if it came off that way Van. But I see appointment and "get together" as the same thing...one is a more formal word of course but the meaning behind each is the same to me.
No assimilation here 
So..in essence...when you agree on a get together it is the least a person can do to call if they cannot make it...
I just think that the examples provided by Steve point more to respect/non-respect than to inflexibility vs. flexibility.
Interesting discussion anyway! |
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stevemcgarrett
Joined: 24 Mar 2006
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| Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2007 9:30 pm Post subject: |
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Homer discerned:
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| I just think that the examples provided by Steve point more to respect/non-respect than to inflexibility vs. flexibility. |
How so? I'm genuinely interested in your explanation.
Many FTs, for example, take affront at being told about their teaching schedules at the last minute, and often after the native faculty (this I've seen not only in Korea but in China, btw). Many of us think that if we were accorded the same degree of respect, we would at least be notified in a more timely manner, especially if we've been given a new course prep or two for the upcoming term.
Here's another example: once at a key university in China, we so-called foreign experts (five altogether) were informed of a lecture by Dr. Jane Goodall on campus only an hour before the event; others were informed two weeks prior. |
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Ilsanman
Joined: 15 Aug 2003
Location: Bucheon, Korea
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| Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2007 9:48 pm Post subject: |
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I am guilty of Korean-izing my English slightly too. Appointment vs date/meeting is one example. But it's not worth getting worried about, is it?
| Homer wrote: |
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I know ESL learners use that word, but homer man, have you forgotten that no one back home would use that word in that context?
If you must use the noun form (not commonly done) it'd be "a get together". I have a get together. Not an "appointment", that's too formal, for biz things... homer, you're really getting assimilated into Korean ways, even their ESL ways. lol |
Sorry if it came off that way Van. But I see appointment and "get together" as the same thing...one is a more formal word of course but the meaning behind each is the same to me.
No assimilation here
So..in essence...when you agree on a get together it is the least a person can do to call if they cannot make it...
I just think that the examples provided by Steve point more to respect/non-respect than to inflexibility vs. flexibility.
Interesting discussion anyway! |
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shortskirt_longjacket
Joined: 06 Jun 2004
Location: fitz and ernie are my raison d'etre
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| Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2007 11:02 pm Post subject: |
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| stevemcgarrett wrote: |
Here's another example: once at a key university in China, we so-called foreign experts (five altogether) were informed of a lecture by Dr. Jane Goodall on campus only an hour before the event; others were informed two weeks prior. |
We are regarded as less important than our Korean/East Asian counterparts.
Also, open communication is seen not as a strength in an organization but as a weapon to be wielded when necessary. "Need-to-know basis" is, I think, what they call it here in the states.
It means you are a second-class citizen and no matter how much you integrate yourself into the society (learn the language, customs, etc.) you will be seen as an outsider.
Now let all the naysayers flame me and try to disprove my hypothesis with weak and very specific, localized antecdotes.
It is the way it is. Those who doubt me suck c0c* by choice. |
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stvwrd
Joined: 31 Mar 2005
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| Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2007 12:04 am Post subject: |
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In my experience when making plans in advance with Korean friends, nothing is certain unless you've made at least two confirmation phone calls.
If you don't confirm a day or two before, it seems to just assumed to be canceled anyway.
To be honest, I kind of like the system, though it certainly took some getting used to and I was definitely offended when people didn't show up on a couple of occasions. We hadn't contacted each other to confirm, so they just assume it's off.
Because of these experiences, I have to agree with the others that say this woman views the relationship as something more romantic. |
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stevemcgarrett
Joined: 24 Mar 2006
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| Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2007 7:41 am Post subject: |
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shortskirt observed:
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| Also, open communication is seen not as a strength in an organization but as a weapon to be wielded when necessary. "Need-to-know basis" is, I think, what they call it here in the states. |
Actually, I think you're right on the money. In East Asian societies (and probably elsewhere) it's not regarded as an obligation, especially where there is authoritarianism or recent history of it.
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| It means you are a second-class citizen and no matter how much you integrate yourself into the society (learn the language, customs, etc.) you will be seen as an outsider. |
Do you really think this is usually the intended message?
Sometimes I just think it's sheer indifference in the same way that acknowledging receipt of emailed applications or most important requests is considered optional. |
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Homer
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2007 6:17 am Post subject: |
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| It means you are a second-class citizen and no matter how much you integrate yourself into the society (learn the language, customs, etc.) you will be seen as an outsider. |
I am sorry but there is a huge gap between being an "outsider" and a "second class citizen".
In fact, most long timers are not citizens at all...we are foreign residents. The perspective on integration is very different when you use the correct terms and status.
If you become a Korean Citizen, then you could consider yourself a second class citizen in certain situations...
But this is outside the topic being discussed.
Steve...I will be glad to elaborate.
I think the two examples you provided in your latest response also point more to respect/non-respect than they do to flexibility vs. inflexibility.
Look at it this way: we are told last minute about changes...that is showing the Korean employer requiring flexibility in his employees (according to your argument). My Korean co-workers get tossed these curveballs routinely by management...
The question of respect/non-respect is more on target here I think because you seem to be saying that being told at the last minute about changes lacks respect....i.e. they treat staff (foreign in your examples)with lack of respect by not giving them sufficient warning of changes.
This is indeed an annoying practice but what if they (Koreans) consider it normal for an employee to be able to adapt to these hectic changes? Perhaps they do not consider it rude at all to do these last minute change ups...
I am just theorizing here.
Personally, I hate last minute changes...as do my Korean colleagues (one professor gets really vocal about it when these changes happen and he is a hilarious guy...).
So in the examples you provided, I think you are discussing what you and some others feel is disrespect (being told of changes or events at the last second).
I can sympathize with this steve because as I said..last minute changes are a pain. However, I remember back home as teacher in Ontario how our principal tossed very similar and annoying curveballs at us at staff meetings. Changes were announced pretty much last minute or on very short notice...perhaps this has helped me deal with the sometimes nasty change ups that employers pull here! |
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stevemcgarrett
Joined: 24 Mar 2006
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| Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2007 6:15 pm Post subject: |
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Homer replied:
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| This is indeed an annoying practice but what if they (Koreans) consider it normal for an employee to be able to adapt to these hectic changes? Perhaps they do not consider it rude at all to do these last minute change ups... |
I think you answered your own question later in relating the example of the Korean colleague who gets very irate at these changes.
But as you know it's not only changes but just notifying others. I'm convinced it's based on an attitude of "when you need to know, we'll tell you." It's paternalistic, as neo-Confucian/authoritarian societies have always been, don't you think?
It happens in the West, depending on the management or administration, but here it's entrenched in my view.
As for flexibility, maybe that's irrelevant as employee compliance is expected.
I've heard some expats here say, perhaps in exaggeration, that "Koreans don't fall any rules if they can get away with it." That comment took me aback because while I sense that Koreans are less compliant than Japanese, they strike me as generally more compliant than most Chinese. Regardless, do you think it's an accurate depiction? (Certainly many don't follow traffic signals!) |
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Homer
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Dec 29, 2007 5:57 am Post subject: |
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Steve,
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| "Koreans don't fall any rules if they can get away with it." |
I would say that this quote should read like this:
"People don't follow any rules if they can get away with it."
As for the last minute thing, I am not disagreeing that it is linked to culture. No debate there!
I am saying that it is precisely because it is linked to culture that it is perceived differently by different people and that it becomes more an issue of respect vs. non-respect than a flexibility vs inflexibility issue.
Also, I think we are getting at the true nexus of the issue you raised: this is much more about employer vs. employee relations than it is about asian vs westerners relations.
No debate here that management often marches to its own drum and tells employees of decisions when they (management) feels it is the time. All I am saying is that the school(s) I worked for back home had a very similar problem where management often dediced when and how to tell employees about changes....
Workers here are exected to tow the line more than they are back home...openly at least. But, having worked for a union (Teachers Union) back home...the line gets towed wether you like it or not there too!
Perhaps then it becomes an issue of people in charge vs people not in charge? |
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stevemcgarrett
Joined: 24 Mar 2006
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| Posted: Sat Dec 29, 2007 6:30 am Post subject: |
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Homer expounded:
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| I am saying that it is precisely because it is linked to culture that it is perceived differently by different people and that it becomes more an issue of respect vs. non-respect than a flexibility vs inflexibility issue. |
I concur, but your afterthought (below) seems to suggest otherwise:
| Quote: |
| Also, I think we are getting at the true nexus of the issue you raised: this is much more about employer vs. employee relations than it is about asian vs westerners relations. |
I don't think its a universal phenomenon, at least not on the same scale, and certainly not at the tertiary level. College faculties have a lot more clout and parity in the West than in the Far East, for example. Academic calendars are sometimes posted three years in advance and the faculty senates attend to administrative policy across campus. But it might be that in the business world there is less difference. Is that what you're suggesting? |
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caniff
Joined: 03 Feb 2004
Location: All over the map
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| Posted: Sat Dec 29, 2007 6:32 am Post subject: |
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| Homer wrote: |
Steve,
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| "Koreans don't fall any rules if they can get away with it." |
I would say that this quote should read like this:
"People don't follow any rules if they can get away with it."
dediced exected tow the line ...the line gets towed wether |
..decided..expected...toe the line (as in step up to the line, which is the proper point behind the expression)..the line gets toed...whether....
Sorry, Homey. Just had to give a little back. 
http://www.reference.com/browse/wiki/Toe_the_line |
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caniff
Joined: 03 Feb 2004
Location: All over the map
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| Posted: Sat Dec 29, 2007 2:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Bump because Mr. Homer has been all over the site this morning responding to innumerable threads with the curious exception of this one.... |
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Homer
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Dec 29, 2007 2:57 pm Post subject: |
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Sorry caniff
Here is my response...
no steve I do not mean only in the business world.
sorry that is all I have the time to write at this moment...going out the door soon. |
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