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Vicissitude
Joined: 27 Feb 2007
Location: Chef School
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 Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2007 4:29 am Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
| Let the opposition exhume Bhutto's body and conduct their own autopsy. |
That's not up to you to make that decision. It's up to her family as well as the law enforcement of Pakistan and they are not allowing for a more extensive examination. I also would like to see some top experts in the field (from around the world) to do a more thorough and unbiased crime scene investigation as well as a forensic autopsy. International intelligence such as the FBI or CIA might also have something more to say about this case, which could lead to clues as to what really happened. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2007 4:51 am Post subject: |
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| Vicissitude wrote: |
| That's not up to you to make that decision... |
Relax. Put your wagging finger away for a moment. And read what I have posted and listen to what I am saying before you respond.
The opposition is making allegations and claims contrary to what the Pakistani govt has concluded and published. The govt has offered them a second look at the body. They have reportedly either not rejected this or implicitly accepted it. Very fine. I offer no decision on this matter (this is merely a current-events message board, I remind you). If they want to press their case or more appropriately, their cause, let them get on with it.
Meanwhile, people ought to relax on the hysteria-building and the conspiracy-theorizing unless they have new facts to present.
I will comment on some of the phrases you have chosen to use, above:
"International intelliegence?" That is not what CIA and FBI do. They work for a national authority: the American govt. They serve its interests. And I do not believe for a nanosecond that you or many others on this board would believe anything the American govt had to say reference this event, in any case.
The only international authority (there is no real international intelligence service, unless you count international treaties and collaboration on matters involving intelligence information like NATO and INTERPOL or unless you are referencing a very few specific issues like child pronography where almost all national govts cooperate with each other to one degree or another) I can think of is the UN. And after the treatment it received from the international community on the Hariri case (e.g., "why should we believe you?"), I doubt it would be falling all over itself to get its hands dirty in this affair. Not to mention Musharraf's open hostility to any such thing ever happening while he rules the country. Are you sure you are even following South-Asian affairs in the first place?
"What really happened?" ROFL. Some people will never be satisfied they know "what really happened" unless any and all authorities admit that they are murderers and rapists and thieves -- who always lie and never tell the truth -- bent on deceiving and/or harming "the people" of country x, y, or z, just for the oil or better yet: just because. Everything has to have "a what really happened" behind it for some: Maine, Pearl Harbor, JFK, Diana, JFK Jr., 9/11, Hariri, now this event...even the fucking Moon. Nonsense.
And get real. She may have been assassinated. She may even have been in the running to take the govt that runs this very unstable and troubled, nuclear-armed, Third-World, guerrilla-friendly country by "democratic" means. But she was not the saint her people -- and others like America's Cable News Network, apparently -- are looking to make her into through this event. If she died while ducking or falling from a bombing attack, and that is what the facts indicate, then let the chips fall where they may. I really do not see the difference here: an assassination is an assassination, by small arms or explosives, it makes little or no difference. Someone attempted to murder her almost definitely for political reasons; this resulted in her death. Therefore she appears to have been assassinated. Case closed on that issue.
Rather than bickering over what kind of death her supporters wish she had died, I think people ought to be investigating far more important questions here... |
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Vicissitude
Joined: 27 Feb 2007
Location: Chef School
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| Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2007 6:21 am Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
| Vicissitude wrote: |
| That's not up to you to make that decision... |
Relax. Put your wagging finger away for a moment. And read what I have posted and listen to what I am saying before you respond.
The opposition is making allegations and claims contrary to what the Pakistani govt has concluded and published. The govt has offered them a second look at the body. They have reportedly either not rejected this or implicitly accepted it. Very fine. I offer no decision on this matter (this is merely a current-events message board, I remind you). If they want to press their case or more appropriately, their cause, let them get on with it.
Meanwhile, people ought to relax on the hysteria-building and the conspiracy-theorizing unless they have new facts to present.
I will comment on some of the phrases you have chosen to use, above:
"International intelliegence?" That is not what CIA and FBI do. They work for a national authority: the American govt. They serve its interests. And I do not believe for a nanosecond that you or many others on this board would believe anything the American govt had to say reference this event, in any case.
The only international authority (there is no real international intelligence service, unless you count international treaties and collaboration on matters involving intelligence information like NATO and INTERPOL or unless you are referencing a very few specific issues like child pronography where almost all national govts cooperate with each other to one degree or another) I can think of is the UN. And after the treatment it received from the international community on the Hariri case (e.g., "why should we believe you?"), I doubt it would be falling all over itself to get its hands dirty in this affair. Not to mention Musharraf's open hostility to any such thing ever happening while he rules the country. Are you sure you are even following South-Asian affairs in the first place?
"What really happened?" ROFL. Some people will never be satisfied they know "what really happened" unless any and all authorities admit that they are murderers and rapists and thieves -- who always lie and never tell the truth -- bent on deceiving and/or harming "the people" of country x, y, or z, just for the oil or better yet: just because. Everything has to have "a what really happened" behind it for some: Maine, Pearl Harbor, JFK, Diana, JFK Jr., 9/11, Hariri, now this event...even the *beep* Moon. Nonsense.
And get real. She may have been assassinated. She may even have been in the running to take the govt that runs this very unstable and troubled, nuclear-armed, Third-World, guerrilla-friendly country by "democratic" means. But she was not the saint her people -- and others like America's Cable News Network, apparently -- are looking to make her into through this event. If she died while ducking or falling from a bombing attack, and that is what the facts indicate, then let the chips fall where they may. I really do not see the difference here: an assassination is an assassination, by small arms or explosives, it makes little or no difference. Someone attempted to murder her almost definitely for political reasons; this resulted in her death. Therefore she appears to have been assassinated. Case closed on that issue.
Rather than bickering over what kind of death her supporters wish she had died, I think people ought to be investigating far more important questions here... |
Get ahold of yourself! You are not possesed by G O D himself. Please get off your trip soon before you get tested for drugs in Korea.
And you obviously don't understand what the CIA does
| Quote: |
Relationship with foreign intelligence services
The CIA also has strong links with other foreign intelligence agencies such as the UK's Secret Intelligence Service, the Canadian Security Intelligence Service, Spain's CNI, Israel's Mossad, and the Australian Secret Intelligence Service. Further, it is currently believed to be financing several Counterterrorist Intelligence Centers[citation needed]. One of these, known under the codename of Alliance Base, was allegedly set up in Paris and jointly run in cooperation with France's DGSE[citation needed]. The CIA may also be actively cooperating with India's Research and Analysis Wing[citation needed] and possibly Russia's SVR[citation needed]. The CIA worked extensively with Pakistan's ISI throughout the Afghan-Soviet War, and works with this agency closely for the War on Terror. |
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA
or what the FBI is all about
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The mission of the FBI is "To protect and defend the United States against terrorist and foreign intelligence threats, to uphold and enforce the criminal laws of the United States, and to provide leadership and criminal justice services to federal, state, municipal, and international agencies and partners. Currently, the FBI's top investigative priorities are:
...Support federal, state, local and international partners |
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FBI
. They are highly involved with international affairs. It's always been this way. Talk to some lifer expats living up in Chiang Mai, Thailand... if you dare. I'm talking about reality here and not some conspiracy.
There aren't enough 'facts' to make a conclusion as to the cause of her death and who are the people responsible. Therefore, it is very reasonable to ask probing questions.
Last edited by Vicissitude on Sun Dec 30, 2007 8:04 am; edited 2 times in total |
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Vicissitude
Joined: 27 Feb 2007
Location: Chef School
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| Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2007 7:04 am Post subject: |
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| igotthisguitar wrote: |
| Vicissitude wrote: |
| igotthisguitar wrote: |
Has anyone mentioned that "official" reports are now saying it was the sun roof window handle that "killed" her?
No bullets, no shrapnel.
Yes, that's right:
She is said to have ducked down back into the "security" vehicle & Al-Quaeda's window latch killed her.
Any guesses as to what the NEXT explanation might be  |
Yeah, how do you duck down AND get killed by a sun roof window handle?
I'm calling bunk on that explanation.
Her husband was the one who refused to allow for more forensic evidence studies on her body. He wanted her buried right away.
Why? |
i see somebody is paying attention 
Asking all the key "pressing" questions 
A Bhutto Successor?
Time.com - Sat Dec 29, 4:55 PM ET
Two days after Benazir Bhutto's assassination, TIME learns that the [b]former prime minister's
19-year-old son is likely to take her place as head of the Pakistan People's Party [/b]  |
Her husband and her son were selected
| Quote: |
| On December 30, 2007 he was selected to co-chairman of the PPP with his son Bilawal Bhutto |
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asif_Ali_Zardari
Based on his history and a motivation to be a leader of the PPP and the fact that he refused to allow for a proper autopsy, I think he's a PRIME suspect in this case. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2007 11:08 am Post subject: |
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CIA and FBI liaise with their counterparts abroad. This is not news. So does everybody else. In fact, at Langley, London and Tel Aviv enjoy special liaison relationships; everybody else falls under the rubric of one general liaison desk. But, in any case, I will not argue whose interests these relationships serve and how these interests govern liaison each way. It is a stupid point and this has become a stupid discussion.
Last edited by Gopher on Sun Dec 30, 2007 11:37 am; edited 1 time in total |
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karma police
Joined: 01 Sep 2007
Location: all roads lead to where you are...
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| Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2007 11:13 am Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
| CIA and FBI liaise with their counterparts abroad. This is not news. So does everybody else. I will not argue whose interests they serve and how this governs liaison each way with you. It is a stupid point and this has become a stupid discussion. |
i so agree...
and, stop speakin' ill of the dead! that curse will do-in your sorry ass right quick...  |
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regicide
Joined: 01 Sep 2006
Location: United States
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| Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2007 6:33 pm Post subject: |
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| karma police wrote: |
| Gopher wrote: |
| CIA and FBI liaise with their counterparts abroad. This is not news. So does everybody else. I will not argue whose interests they serve and how this governs liaison each way with you. It is a stupid point and this has become a stupid discussion. |
i so agree...
and, stop speakin' ill of the dead! that curse will do-in your sorry ass right quick... |
As I have stated before the US announced just a few [say 12 or so] hours before the assassination they were sending 'military advisors' (think of how that wording was used to mean troops in Vietnam) to Pakistan. She had obviously already heard. But I think her death was being written when Negroponte was pursuading her return and that the US Govt. would assure protection...well they did, the same kind they gave JFK and quite a few other foreign leaders......
I think the exact mechanics of the assassination are not so important. If it hadn't happened that afternoon, the next day or the next. She was as good as 'dead' upon entering on the US-brokered ambush. I believe the US also knows that they will have to change Pakistani puppets now, as the Pakistani People want a head to 'roll' and will blame the current thug, but I sadly do not think they will get someone who wants Pakistan for the Pakistanis, but another client dictator. We collect them, the way some collect little stupid chochkies on their mantleplace. Very sick and cynical game Brezinski named the 'Grand Chessboard'. Anyone who thinks these rich white christian men have all our best interests [rather than only their own bankaccounts and power notions] in mind, are woefully naive and superstitious, just as they would have it.
It 'reads' just like Dallas...maybe they teach the general techniques at the School of the Americas..
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ali-eteraz/b...na_b_78434.html |
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canuckistan
Mod Team
Joined: 17 Jun 2003
Location: Training future GS competitors.....
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| Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2007 6:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Her husband was the one who refused to allow for more forensic evidence studies on her body. He wanted her buried right away. Why? |
Traditional muslim burials should be done within 24 hours, and those who have been martyred are buried wearing the clothes they were martyred in.
An autopsy would be very disrespectful.
She was shot and had mostly dropped into the vehicle before any bomb blast could have hit her in any significant way. Check out the latest vid. Not a particularly windy day blowing her scarf around....a few bullets did that--it's clear--from the same side of the vehicle (her left) as the shooter that was caught on film in a prior vid.
http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/asiapcf/12/30/pakistan.politics/index.html
Perhaps the gov't is trying to deny her a martyr's death. |
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Vicissitude
Joined: 27 Feb 2007
Location: Chef School
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| Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2007 8:30 pm Post subject: |
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| canuckistan wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Her husband was the one who refused to allow for more forensic evidence studies on her body. He wanted her buried right away. Why? |
Traditional muslim burials should be done within 24 hours, and those who have been martyred are buried wearing the clothes they were martyred in.
An autopsy would be very disrespectful.
She was shot and had mostly dropped into the vehicle before any bomb blast could have hit her in any significant way. Check out the latest vid. Not a particularly windy day blowing her scarf around....a few bullets did that--it's clear--from the same side of the vehicle (her left) as the shooter that was caught on film in a prior vid.
http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/asiapcf/12/30/pakistan.politics/index.html
Perhaps the gov't is trying to deny her a martyr's death. |
There are many different denominations of Muslims who have different traditions regarding how they treat their dead. Even amongst those denominations, there exist various different burial practices from one country to the next.
True, they should be burried as soon as possible but there is no set followed rule that they must be buried within 24 hours. There are several burial traditions being practiced, which go against the Quran such as using a casket and placing flowers on or around the dead. This was obviously done in Pakistan at the funeral of Bhutto.
http://edition.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/asiapcf/12/30/pakistan.politics/index.html
Notice how her husband is so vehemently opposing an autopsy on the grounds that "we know the cause of her death" and that it would be too invasive. However, if she were shot (as he claims), then it would be easy to notice the wounds to the head. There is nothing that would have been insulting or invasive to her body by simply noticing where the bullet wounds entered. Traditional Muslim burials require that the body is washed and this would have taken even more time and been even more invasive than simply noticing the bullet wounds to her head. He's talking out of two sides of his mouth. Remember that this guy has a real shady past and he's linked to murders, especially within the Bhutto family.
If Bhutto was shot, as her husband claims, then why isn't he doing all he can to press the authorities into finding her murderer? The shooter is still at large and he's comfortable with that, just as his own son is put into the limelight? Is he to become the next victim of another Bhutto assassination? |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2007 10:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Regicide: this is God. What is your evidence that the American govt arranged and effected this assassination? And what does the School of the Americas have to do with South-Asian affairs...? |
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canuckistan
Mod Team
Joined: 17 Jun 2003
Location: Training future GS competitors.....
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| Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2007 11:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| There is nothing that would have been insulting or invasive to her body by simply noticing where the bullet wounds entered |
Bullet wounds duly noted by doctors soon after her death was announced (until the gov't changed the story) and bullet wounds duly noted by one female attendent to the washing of the body-- saying the govt's new claims are false...and they are.
The gov't hadn't counted on the latest vids showing up.
| Quote: |
| If Bhutto was shot, as her husband claims, then why isn't he doing all he can to press the authorities into finding her murderer? |
The Pakistan gov't has refused all offers of international help in tracking down those responsible--just as they refused international help in tracking down those responsible for the bombings that occured shortly after Bhutto's arrival in Pakistan. Interestingly, just before that first bombing the street lights suddenly went out, and the police disappeared. Does this sound familiar?
And you think they're actually going to help?
They've released transcripts of a wire tap of an individual in Waziristan discussing the killing, and whom they say is responsible. He denies it.
| Quote: |
| The shooter is still at large and he's comfortable with that |
The shooter and his friend appear to have blown themselves, and quite a few others, to smithereens that day after one of them finished blasting off a few rounds. You think they're hanging out at the local 7-11 right now?
Would it surprise me if the more radical Islamist elements of the intelligence services organized this w/o Musharaff's knowledge?
Absolutely not. |
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regicide
Joined: 01 Sep 2006
Location: United States
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| Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2007 11:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
| Regicide: this is God. What is your evidence that the American govt arranged and effected this assassination? And what does the School of the Americas have to do with South-Asian affairs...? |
You are smart enough to answer your own questions posed above.
Let's look at the similarities to Dallas:
1) Early eyewitness and medical personnel reports being changed by the government's media machine after they had been reported in the early minutes of the tragedy. In both cases, obvious head wounds that a layman can see with their own eyes.
2) A medical cover-up of the victim�s body out of jurisdictional reasons in Dallas; out of religious concerns in Rawalpindi.
3) The fact that the victims had multiple enemies making it difficult to figure who was actually behind the killing.
4) Evidence of a False Flag operation: In Rawalpindi it is Al-Qaeda who has been immediately blamed by the US Government as the responsible party. Just like the mafia in Dallas, they were probably the assassins, but that may be all. JFK, like Bhutto, had so many enemies making it very difficult to figure out who was really behind the murder.
5) A patsy who conveniently dies shortly after the murder. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Mon Dec 31, 2007 12:06 am Post subject: |
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Let's look at the similarities to Dallas:
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6. Oswald DEFINITELY didn't kill JFK or Bhutto  |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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regicide
Joined: 01 Sep 2006
Location: United States
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| Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 3:23 am Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
| Regicide: this is God. What is your evidence that the American govt arranged and effected this assassination? And what does the School of the Americas have to do with South-Asian affairs...? |
Did Bush send Bhutto to her death?
January 1, 2008 - 8:45am
The Bush Administration "condemned former Pakistan Prime Minister Benazir Bhutto to death" by ignoring warnings from the CIA that she would "almost certainly be assassinated" if she returned to her native country, intelligence sources tell Capitol Hill Blue.
An assessment prepared by the Central Intelligence Agency said Bhutto would not be safe if she returned to Pakistan but the Bush White House ignored the warning and dispatched Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice to London to persuade Bhutto to go home and seek political office.
"If the former Prime Minister were to return to Pakistan, she would almost certainly be assassinated," said the CIA assessment, prepared by agency operatives on the ground in that country.
"The Bush Administration murdered Benazir Bhutto by convincing her to return to Pakistan," a former CIA operative said this week. "She was doomed the second the set foot on Pakastani soil. The White House condemned her to death by talking her into returning."
http://www.capitolhillblue.com/artman/publish/article_8184.shtml |
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