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igotthisguitar
Joined: 08 Apr 2003
Location: South Korea (Permanent Vacation)
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 Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2007 6:21 am Post subject: |
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Church-EE-anity has been going GREAT GUNS in this country since the Korean War  |
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Harpeau
Joined: 01 Feb 2003
Location: Coquitlam, BC
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| Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2007 7:05 am Post subject: |
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I, personally wonder if there is a Hell. Sartre once said that life is Hell. For many, it is. In addition, many Christians have a knack of turning up the heat.
All I know is that God is loving and cares for everyone in the world. |
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RACETRAITOR
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Location: Seoul, South Korea
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| Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2007 7:37 am Post subject: |
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| Harpeau wrote: |
I, personally wonder if there is a Hell. Sartre once said that life is Hell. For many, it is. In addition, many Christians have a knack of turning up the heat.
All I know is that God is loving and cares for everyone in the world. |
Nah, God is just using us for its entertainment and doesn't care one way or the other. |
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RACETRAITOR
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Location: Seoul, South Korea
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| Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2007 7:38 am Post subject: Re: re: |
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| nobbyken wrote: |
Isaiah 55:9
"As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts."
Every person has a choice between good or evil, so we should pray for those with authority over us.
John 19:10,11
10"Do you refuse to speak to me?" Pilate said. "Don't you realize I have power either to free you or to crucify you?"
11Jesus answered, "You would have no power over me if it were not given to you from above. Therefore the one who handed me over to you is guilty of a greater sin."
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Romans 13:2
Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. |
It is pretty sick. You can see in a lot of places where the Bible's true purpose (forcing authority down the throats of peasants) still shines through. I'm personally surprised that Americans kept the religion bit when they threw out the monarchy. Aren't they one and the same? |
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daemyann
Joined: 09 Nov 2007
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| Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2007 8:51 am Post subject: |
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Even if all of the OP's premises are uncontentious, (despite many posts above serving as evidence to the contrary), why should Korean Christians have to reconcile themselves to this?
If you're going to question the foundation of religious beliefs, why stop at Koreans and Christianity? Furthermore, why stop at religion at all? Basic POV assumptions are prevalent in virtually every world view, as are self serving explanations thereof. Never discount our ability to cling to any explanation that seems to preserve the beliefs we prefer.....do whatever we can to retain our beliefs (regardless of whether or not they're accurate) in an effort to dissolve whatever cognitive dissonance may be present.
Lastly,
Asking for someone to reconcile their view in light of your own seems to presuppose that their view is either incorrect, or at very least incomplete. Not a good starting point. |
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igotthisguitar
Joined: 08 Apr 2003
Location: South Korea (Permanent Vacation)
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| Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2007 1:21 pm Post subject: |
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i for one don't have a single problem with most so-called Korean "christians".
Many are quite kind & thoughtful. The constant "door-knocking" thing is a little annoying, but it helps me work on better perfecting patience 
The ones who frankly concern me are simply those who, whether in West or here, show themselves to be emotional disturbed basket cases  |
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seoulunitarian
Joined: 06 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2007 2:54 pm Post subject: re: |
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| daemyann wrote: |
Even if all of the OP's premises are uncontentious, (despite many posts above serving as evidence to the contrary), why should Korean Christians have to reconcile themselves to this?
If you're going to question the foundation of religious beliefs, why stop at Koreans and Christianity? Furthermore, why stop at religion at all? Basic POV assumptions are prevalent in virtually every world view, as are self serving explanations thereof. Never discount our ability to cling to any explanation that seems to preserve the beliefs we prefer.....do whatever we can to retain our beliefs (regardless of whether or not they're accurate) in an effort to dissolve whatever cognitive dissonance may be present.
Lastly,
Asking for someone to reconcile their view in light of your own seems to presuppose that their view is either incorrect, or at very least incomplete. Not a good starting point. |
1. They, and every other Christian (or other religious person) in the world, should try to answer the question to achieve as much intellectual honesty as possible.
2. Critics of religion often criticize religious assumptions rather than generic POV assumptions because religious assumptions often are (1) more dangerous when put into practice, and (2) less likely to be reasonable. Many, though not all, POV assumptions can be reasoned out logically, or at least philosophically in an attemptedly honest way - the two are not always the same.
3. Your last point is the most inane, postmodern drivel I have seen in a long while. Of course some views are incorrect and others are correct. It is an excellent starting point. I will meet you half way, and agree that objective truth is hard to get at in light of multiple perceptions, but it is possible.
Peace |
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daemyann
Joined: 09 Nov 2007
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| Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2007 10:17 am Post subject: Re: re: |
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| seoulunitarian wrote: |
1. They, and every other Christian (or other religious person) in the world, should try to answer the question to achieve as much intellectual honesty as possible.
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I agree that the practice of apologetics is a good one, if only to help us become more familiar with our own beliefs and the assumptions therein.
This in no way prevents me from pointing out the bias overtones in the OP, nor does it prevent me from noting that while I believe it's good to question one's beliefs, Korean Christians are completely within their rights if they choose not to do so. Moreover, because they do not need to[b], explain their views in light of the OP's (regardless of whether or not you or I believe they should), they more than likely [b]will not.
(Especially when the post in questions reads like an ignorant, pre-concluded "calling out" of sorts.)
| seoulunitarian wrote: |
2. Critics of religion often criticize religious assumptions rather than generic POV assumptions because religious assumptions often are (1) more dangerous when put into practice, and (2) less likely to be reasonable. Many, though not all, POV assumptions can be reasoned out logically, or at least philosophically in an attemptedly honest way - the two are not always the same.
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I'll let you argue against yourself here, to save us both some time.
Look for your assumptions and generalizations, and use the line of reasoning you championed only one paragraph ago.
| seoulunitarian wrote: |
3. Your last point is the most inane, postmodern drivel I have seen in a long while. Of course some views are incorrect and others are correct. It is an excellent starting point. I will meet you half way, and agree that objective truth is hard to get at in light of multiple perceptions, but it is possible.
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Describing a point as "inane" and "drivel" is meeting me half-way?.....Really?
Guess I should brush up on my netiquette...
I was in no way arguing for pure relativism, as you seem to have guessed . Quite the opposite. I was advocating dropping our preformed conclusions before entering a debate, especially one supposedly aimed at objective and rational discussion.
There is certainly nothing wrong with asking someone to explain their beliefs. However when you ask someone to explain their beliefs, but only after they've already agreed to some of your own (ie. "in light of your own", to which they may or may not agree), you cannot be surprised when people aren't fighting to get in line.
This is especially true considering the amount of ridicule dissenting views often get in forums.
To give a simplistic example, consider this:
Person A believes in fan death.
Person B does not.
Both have what they individually consider to be ample evidence for their beliefs.
Person A, rather than asking for a simple explanation of B's belief, and then seeking common ground upon which to begin a discussion, says instead "How do you explain you belief in light of all my evidence!?"
Of course, B would disagree with some or all of A's premises, and necessarily his conclusion. Moreover, if the discussion is taking place in a forum rife with trolls and pseudo-intellectual elitists (not a comment aimed at you), they're likely to avoid the argument altogether, which brings me back to my earlier point of "because they do not need to defend their beliefs, especially in light of someone else's, they wont."
Hope that helped.
Last edited by daemyann on Fri Dec 28, 2007 10:24 am; edited 1 time in total |
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0916
Joined: 26 Dec 2007
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| Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2007 2:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Every time I've met one and thought they were ok they've eventually asked me to go to Church with them or told me I should pray. I try and steer clear now... |
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ella
Joined: 17 Apr 2006
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| Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2007 5:40 pm Post subject: |
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| The only thing you have to remember about Korean Christians is that for them Confucianism trumps Christianity. Always. |
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seoulunitarian
Joined: 06 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2007 3:06 pm Post subject: Re: re: |
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| daemyann wrote: |
| seoulunitarian wrote: |
1. They, and every other Christian (or other religious person) in the world, should try to answer the question to achieve as much intellectual honesty as possible.
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I agree that the practice of apologetics is a good one, if only to help us become more familiar with our own beliefs and the assumptions therein.
This in no way prevents me from pointing out the bias overtones in the OP, nor does it prevent me from noting that while I believe it's good to question one's beliefs, Korean Christians are completely within their rights if they choose not to do so. Moreover, because they do not need to[b], explain their views in light of the OP's (regardless of whether or not you or I believe they should), they more than likely [b]will not.
(Especially when the post in questions reads like an ignorant, pre-concluded "calling out" of sorts.)
| seoulunitarian wrote: |
2. Critics of religion often criticize religious assumptions rather than generic POV assumptions because religious assumptions often are (1) more dangerous when put into practice, and (2) less likely to be reasonable. Many, though not all, POV assumptions can be reasoned out logically, or at least philosophically in an attemptedly honest way - the two are not always the same.
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I'll let you argue against yourself here, to save us both some time.
Look for your assumptions and generalizations, and use the line of reasoning you championed only one paragraph ago.
| seoulunitarian wrote: |
3. Your last point is the most inane, postmodern drivel I have seen in a long while. Of course some views are incorrect and others are correct. It is an excellent starting point. I will meet you half way, and agree that objective truth is hard to get at in light of multiple perceptions, but it is possible.
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Describing a point as "inane" and "drivel" is meeting me half-way?.....Really?
Guess I should brush up on my netiquette...
I was in no way arguing for pure relativism, as you seem to have guessed . Quite the opposite. I was advocating dropping our preformed conclusions before entering a debate, especially one supposedly aimed at objective and rational discussion.
There is certainly nothing wrong with asking someone to explain their beliefs. However when you ask someone to explain their beliefs, but only after they've already agreed to some of your own (ie. "in light of your own", to which they may or may not agree), you cannot be surprised when people aren't fighting to get in line.
This is especially true considering the amount of ridicule dissenting views often get in forums.
To give a simplistic example, consider this:
Person A believes in fan death.
Person B does not.
Both have what they individually consider to be ample evidence for their beliefs.
Person A, rather than asking for a simple explanation of B's belief, and then seeking common ground upon which to begin a discussion, says instead "How do you explain you belief in light of all my evidence!?"
Of course, B would disagree with some or all of A's premises, and necessarily his conclusion. Moreover, if the discussion is taking place in a forum rife with trolls and pseudo-intellectual elitists (not a comment aimed at you), they're likely to avoid the argument altogether, which brings me back to my earlier point of "because they do not need to defend their beliefs, especially in light of someone else's, they wont."
Hope that helped. |
You're assuming too much about my supposed assumptions on religion. I do not assume that (1) religion is often more dangerous when put into practice than other POV assumptions, and that (2) religious assumptions are more likely to be unreasonable. These two points are something I believe evidence supports. Assuming and following the evidence are two very different things.
I suppose just as I incorrectly judged you were arguing for postmodernism, you incorrectly judged that I was entering this debate with preformed conclusions based on assumptions.
Peace |
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fiveeagles
Joined: 19 May 2005
Location: Vancouver
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| Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2007 11:46 pm Post subject: |
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| ED209 wrote: |
| Well why did God wait 4000 years after the fall of Adam and Eve to send Jesus? Why let all that sin go on for thousands of years? That's a long time to wait before giving up on humanity finding its own salvation. Although God of course knew that sin would go on for thousands of years after Adam and Eve as well as after the flood. But no he waited for it to fester more, then sent his son. |
It's a love story of reconciliation between man and God. Thoughout those 4000 years, stories of God's redemptive nature are revealed through people and creation throughout the OT and the NT. Jesus is the great "I AM" He is eternal and beyond time. His redemption was available in the OT for those who choose the light. Like it is available to those who live in regions that haven't heard of Christ. He reveals himself through visions, dreams and the supernatural so that people can decide on whether they will follow the truth.
Or so I think.  |
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fiveeagles
Joined: 19 May 2005
Location: Vancouver
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| Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2007 11:49 pm Post subject: |
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| RACETRAITOR wrote: |
| Harpeau wrote: |
I, personally wonder if there is a Hell. Sartre once said that life is Hell. For many, it is. In addition, many Christians have a knack of turning up the heat.
All I know is that God is loving and cares for everyone in the world. |
Nah, God is just using us for its entertainment and doesn't care one way or the other. |
God created hell for Satan and his angels. It was never intended to be for people. People end up going to hell because they choose to. |
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ED209
Joined: 17 Oct 2006
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| Posted: Mon Dec 31, 2007 12:04 am Post subject: |
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| fiveeagles wrote: |
It's a love story of reconciliation between man and God. Thoughout those 4000 years, stories of God's redemptive nature are revealed through people and creation throughout the OT and the NT. |
Stories of spiteful cruelty, ain't no love in the OT. Why take so long to send a messiah and forgive everyone's sin?
| fiveeagles wrote: |
| Jesus is the great "I AM" He is eternal and beyond time. |
Does he travel around space in a blue police box with a pretty assistant?
| fiveeagles wrote: |
His redemption was available in the OT for those who choose the light. Like it is available to those who live in regions that haven't heard of Christ. He reveals himself through visions, dreams and the supernatural so that people can decide on whether they will follow the truth.
Or so I think. |
Dreams? Not the best medium to choose. Has he tried posting on Dave's? |
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Biblethumper
Joined: 15 Dec 2007
Location: Busan, Korea
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| Posted: Mon Dec 31, 2007 1:25 am Post subject: |
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III. By the decree of God, for the manifestation of His glory, some men and angels are predestinated unto everlasting life, and others fore-ordained to everlasting death.
1 Tim. v. 21; Matt. xxv. 41; Rom. ix. 22, 23; Eph. i. 5, 6; Prov. xvi. 4.
VII. The rest of mankind God was pleased, according to the unsearchable counsel of His own will, whereby He extendeth or withholdeth mercy, as He pleaseth, for the glory of His sovereign power over His creatures, to pass by; and to ordain them to dishonour and wrath, for their sin, to the praise of His glorious justice.
Matt. xi. 25, 26; Rom. ix. 17, 18, 21, 22; 2 Tim. ii. 19, 20; Jude ver. 4; 1 Pet. ii. 8. |
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