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itaewonguy

Joined: 25 Mar 2003
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Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 11:37 am Post subject: |
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| Billy Pilgrim wrote: |
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How about you answer? Is it possible, no matter how small that possibility is, that there is no god of any kind? |
GOD.. in my mind doesnt have to be person, god to me means superior power! that power to me can be the cause of the big bang! god might just be matter.. god might be a star! but there is a god! something made this universe! and what ever it is.. there is a cause.. and that cause is god!
heaven, hell, virgins, paradise, how the hell do I know!!!
jesus walked on water and cured blind people.. I dont think so..
the dali lama reincarnated! I dont think so..
moses went up the mountain and spoke to god! I dont know... seems alittle far fetched!
human beings came from bacteria in a puddle of water! whats the difference between that story and moses parting the red sea? far fetched isnt??
if the universe is infinite! then it seems possible that we can be created again! the same time, some place, same universe! think about it..
if it all started from bacteria in a swamp! billions of years ago.. whats the possibility that it can be done again billions of years later? if evolution has a way of repeating itself.. then we will all be here again..
which might seem like an infinity time frame will only be seconds when you exit your mothers belly!..
or perhaps we are already here on another planet billions of light years away. if it all started from a pool of water..
and if thats the case.. then life is infinite!!
talk about science fiction, fairy tales! black holes and expanding universes!! the possiblities are endless then arent they... |
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Rteacher

Joined: 23 May 2005 Location: Western MA, USA
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Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 1:28 pm Post subject: |
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Yes, it's very possible that Mother Teresa was born into the Hare Krishna movement her next life ...
http://www.prabhupadaconnect.com/The_Hare_Krishna_People.html
(This film came out the year that I was initiated, I think - 1974 ...)
Based on this passage from the Wikipedia article on her, I get the sense that she was a saintly person inspired to serve the spiritual needs of people, while trying to please God in a nonsectarian way:
Teresa wrote in her diary that her first year was fraught with difficulties. She had no income and had to resort to begging for food and supplies. Teresa experienced doubt, loneliness and the temptation to return to the comfort of convent life during these early months. She wrote in her diary:
� Our Lord wants me to be a free nun covered with the poverty of the cross. Today I learned a good lesson. The poverty of the poor must be so hard for them. While looking for a home I walked and walked till my arms and legs ached. I thought how much they must ache in body and soul, looking for a home, food and health. Then the comfort of Loreto [her former order] came to tempt me. 'You have only to say the word and all that will be yours again,' the Tempter kept on saying ... Of free choice, my God, and out of love for you, I desire to remain and do whatever be your Holy will in my regard. I did not let a single tear come. �
Mother Teresa's Home for the Dying in Kolkata (Calcutta).Teresa received Vatican permission on October 7, 1950 to start the diocesan congregation that would become the Missionaries of Charity. Its mission was to care for, in her own words, "the hungry, the naked, the homeless, the crippled, the blind, the lepers, all those people who feel unwanted, unloved, uncared for throughout society, people that have become a burden to the society and are shunned by everyone." It began as a small order with 13 members in Calcutta; today it has more than 4,000 nuns running orphanages, AIDS hospices, and charity centers worldwide, and caring for refugees, the blind, disabled, aged, alcoholics, the poor and homeless, and victims of floods, epidemics, and famine.
In 1952 Mother Teresa opened the first Home for the Dying in space made available by the City of Calcutta. With the help of Indian officials she converted an abandoned Hindu temple into the Kalighat Home for the Dying, a free hospice for the poor. She renamed it Kalighat, the Home of the Pure Heart (Nirmal Hriday). Those brought to the home received medical attention and were afforded the opportunity to die with dignity, according to the rituals of their faith; Muslims were read the Quran, Hindus received water from the Ganges, and Catholics received the Last Rites. "A beautiful death," she said, "is for people who lived like animals to die like angels � loved and wanted." Mother Teresa soon opened a home for those suffering from Hansen's disease, commonly known as leprosy, and called the hospice Shanti Nagar (City of Peace). The Missionaries of Charity also established several leprosy outreach clinics throughout Calcutta, providing medication, bandages and food... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mother_Teresa
There may have been some discrepancies, and she may have experienced some doubts due to incomplete philosophical understanding of the cause of human suffering, but to the extent that she sincerely tried to please God by her service, she can be considered a great soul making progress on the spiritual path...
People who would callously and unnecessarily criticise such a person obviously have demonic tendencies (yet are admired by fools for their erudition and sophistication...) |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 3:20 pm Post subject: |
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| itaewonguy wrote: |
| Billy Pilgrim wrote: |
[
How about you answer? Is it possible, no matter how small that possibility is, that there is no god of any kind? |
GOD.. in my mind doesnt have to be person, god to me means superior power! that power to me can be the cause of the big bang! god might just be matter.. god might be a star! but there is a god! something made this universe! and what ever it is.. there is a cause.. and that cause is god!
heaven, hell, virgins, paradise, how the hell do I know!!!
jesus walked on water and cured blind people.. I dont think so..
the dali lama reincarnated! I dont think so..
moses went up the mountain and spoke to god! I dont know... seems alittle far fetched!
human beings came from bacteria in a puddle of water! whats the difference between that story and moses parting the red sea? far fetched isnt??
if the universe is infinite! then it seems possible that we can be created again! the same time, some place, same universe! think about it..
if it all started from bacteria in a swamp! billions of years ago.. whats the possibility that it can be done again billions of years later? if evolution has a way of repeating itself.. then we will all be here again..
which might seem like an infinity time frame will only be seconds when you exit your mothers belly!..
or perhaps we are already here on another planet billions of light years away. if it all started from a pool of water..
and if thats the case.. then life is infinite!!
talk about science fiction, fairy tales! black holes and expanding universes!! the possiblities are endless then arent they... |
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance
You need to study a bit. |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 3:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Rteacher wrote: |
It's profoundly ignorant and/or rebellious to think that glorifiying God is a sign of self-hatred.
The more we glorify God, the more we spiritually benefit ourselves - like pouring water on the root of a tree.
Materialistic philanthropy is akin to pouring water on the individual leaves, missing the spiritual root of all existence.
God presents the same essential message in different scriptures, but the Bible is geared for understanding by more sentimental types.
However, the Bible also prescribes glorifying and congregationally chanting Holy Names of God.
And God is not limited to having just one-or-two Holy Names ...
Hallelujah! Hare Krishna! Allah Akbar! Rama! Vishnu! Jehovah! Yahweh - My Way ...
http://www.krishnatemple.com/manor/harrison/gh-godperson.shtm
http://www.prabhupadaconnect.com/Here_Comes_the_Sun.html |
Anyone read Rteacher? |
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Billy Pilgrim

Joined: 08 Sep 2004
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Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 4:24 pm Post subject: |
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| itaewonguy wrote: |
| fact is, people dont want a world without morality! and thats all that atheism brings! ... |
I'm sorry, but this is completely false. If you truly believe this, then you are not worthy as a discussion adversary, as it is quite clear you are not being rational. |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 4:51 pm Post subject: |
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| itaewonguy wrote: |
| fact is, people dont want a world without morality! and thats all that atheism brings! ... |
False dichotomy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma |
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blondebecky
Joined: 22 Jul 2006
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Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 5:28 pm Post subject: |
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I do not agree that atheists "want a world without morality" but honestly, what incentive do you have to treat others as you would be treated if you believe that this is the only life you have been given? Aside from the simple social imperative of avoiding disputes with your neighbours/obeying the law so as to avoid punishment, what reasoning can you provide for any ethics that people should live by?
I'm not arguing this to "prove" that there is a god, just wondering what justification you could provide for makind's conception of morality if there is no higher being who implemented the moral code in the first place.
For that matter, for what reason do we perceive beauty in the world around us? What drives our creative impulses? What evolutionary needs to these human abilities serve? |
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laogaiguk

Joined: 06 Dec 2005 Location: somewhere in Korea
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Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 5:52 pm Post subject: |
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| blondebecky wrote: |
I do not agree that atheists "want a world without morality" but honestly, what incentive do you have to treat others as you would be treated if you believe that this is the only life you have been given? Aside from the simple social imperative of avoiding disputes with your neighbours/obeying the law so as to avoid punishment, what reasoning can you provide for any ethics that people should live by?
I'm not arguing this to "prove" that there is a god, just wondering what justification you could provide for makind's conception of morality if there is no higher being who implemented the moral code in the first place.
For that matter, for what reason do we perceive beauty in the world around us? What drives our creative impulses? What evolutionary needs to these human abilities serve? |
morality creates order. quite simple actually. |
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Billy Pilgrim

Joined: 08 Sep 2004
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Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 6:05 pm Post subject: |
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| blondebecky wrote: |
I do not agree that atheists "want a world without morality" but honestly, what incentive do you have to treat others as you would be treated if you believe that this is the only life you have been given? Aside from the simple social imperative of avoiding disputes with your neighbours/obeying the law so as to avoid punishment, what reasoning can you provide for any ethics that people should live by?
I'm not arguing this to "prove" that there is a god, just wondering what justification you could provide for makind's conception of morality if there is no higher being who implemented the moral code in the first place.
For that matter, for what reason do we perceive beauty in the world around us? What drives our creative impulses? What evolutionary needs to these human abilities serve? |
I'm no expert, but here are my guesses:
Morality can very easily be seen as a product of simple selective behaviour. Put simply, treating others poorly would more than likely see you ostracized from society, and thus have less access to the prime resources, whatever you consider them to be. Therefore, it's in your best interests to be seen as an on-the-level type person. Hell, it's been shown in fish that cleaner fish that take bites out of their "customers" are frequented less by those customers, a simple case of punishment for poor behaviour. Hence most cleaner fish tend not to do it. I don't think they have a God, either. We feel good when we do good things because it is biologically rewarding - we can expect reciprocation. We feel guilt and shame when we do wrong because we can expect our peers to distance themselves from us should they ever discover the deceit. It's rather logical, if you ask me.
But with the evolution of consciousness, we have more room to move in our behavior, and thus more choice with regards what we do individually, that's true. But, man, if you can't conceive of a person doing good if they don't have some God to follow, then I'm afraid you have an exceptionally dim view or your fellow man, or yourself, which, not coincidentally, I have been arguing IS religion's opinion of mankind.
I suspect our creative side is a side effect of the biological useful adaptation of tool-making and thinking of novel solutions to difficult problems. Seems to me, it's incredibly adaptive to be able to brainstorm, in and of itself. Hence creativity.
I'm not sure where you are going with the beauty angle. Seems to me you're trying to imply God makes us see beauty as a way to appreciate our environment and his work, but on the other side, seeing beauty in nature would indicate respect for that nature, and thus a more sustainable and less destructive relationship with the ecosystem within which we live, at least way back when we were little tribesmen. |
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ED209
Joined: 17 Oct 2006
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Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 6:10 pm Post subject: |
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| blondebecky wrote: |
I do not agree that atheists "want a world without morality" but honestly, what incentive do you have to treat others as you would be treated if you believe that this is the only life you have been given? Aside from the simple social imperative of avoiding disputes with your neighbours/obeying the law so as to avoid punishment, what reasoning can you provide for any ethics that people should live by? |
The common reply to this is 'If God is the only thing preventing you from murdering and raping people then please don't stop believing in Him'.
Isn't it better that we teach people to feel empathy and understand the causes of harm and suffering than to simply say 'Don't do that, God doesn't like it'.
Again we are left with the question 'Where does God get His morality from?'.
There is much out there you can read on altruism and evolution also. It also may well come that we evolve to be less moral(something many atheists and evolutionists would see as a disaster).
| blondebecky wrote: |
I'm not arguing this to "prove" that there is a god, just wondering what justification you could provide for makind's conception of morality if there is no higher being who implemented the moral code in the first place.
For that matter, for what reason do we perceive beauty in the world around us? What drives our creative impulses? What evolutionary needs to these human abilities serve? |
On the matter of beauty I'll give you a quote from Douglas Adams
| Quote: |
Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too? |
Also the evidence out there suggests atheists are less prone to committing crimes(or maybe we're better at not getting caught ) and non-religious doctors are more likely to give their time to the less wealthy. |
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ED209
Joined: 17 Oct 2006
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Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 6:22 pm Post subject: |
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| ED209 wrote: |
| contrarian wrote: |
Nearly all of the criticism of Mother Theresa came at about the time she came out against abortion.
Hitchens is simply a grasping, get rich quick artist whose schtick is attacks on what people believe. He has no redeeming qualities. |
Nobel Peace Prize speech announcing anti-abortion sentiment-1979
Hitchens book The Missionary Position is published-1995
16 years= 'about the same time'? What are you grasping at? |
| contrarian wrote: |
1979 was the start. I can remember the event and the general consensus was that "she should keep her mouth shut" about such divisive issues. When did Hitchen's first book come out? It was fairly recently.
What is your point? More BS on the liberal/aetheist side? |
Liberal? How dare you!
People criticised here when she spoke out against abortion, is that a surprise? Should such comments not be open to criticism?
You claimed Hitchens was on a get rich scheme, he didn't publish his criticisms until 1995, 16years after(as far as I can see) her comments on abortion. Above all this why should MT be free from criticism?
More BS from the Moomin side? |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 6:38 pm Post subject: |
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| blondebecky wrote: |
| I do not agree that atheists "want a world without morality" but honestly, what incentive do you have to treat others as you would be treated if you believe that this is the only life you have been given? |
Are you saying if you had 100% solid evidence there was no god, you would go out and rape, steal, and murder? The only thing keeping you from killing your neighbor is the promise of heaven? Geez. I'm glad I'm not your friend.
It would seem to me basic morality isn't an arbitrary set of rules god laid down. They are right because they are right for a good and happy life, this life and the after life. Surely god wouldn't decide "oh hmmm on the murder question... seems so arbitrary so let's make murder a sin..." |
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seoulunitarian

Joined: 06 Jul 2004
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Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 7:32 pm Post subject: re: |
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| itaewonguy wrote: |
great story..
and there are hundreds of thousands of stories like that! through history and present! recorded documented! atheists only excuse is they are crazy!
becuase they dont want to believe what people say...
they like to call everyone liers! they would walk right up IAN and call him a lier to his face becuase he cant prove his experience..
ohh well... too bad for them..
im still curious though.. if athiests have ruled out god, jesus, allah and every other god.. why do they keep coming into religious threads, religious arguments! why do they keep lurking around religion!!
why dont you turn your back on religion and stop searching for answers in these circles.. and focus your attention on science.. why waste your time with a billion nut jobs who believe in god??
becuase deep down brother! you havent ruled it out!! mentaly you think you have! but its obvious you havent.. just like that whack job dawkins
he still hasnt completely ruled out god either.. hahaha what a hyprocrite he is..!
everything comes back to religion love it or hate it.. thats how it will be forever.. even if its .000001% thats enough!!!
im also guessing that the extremists here mindmetoo, hale and billy.. probably grew up religious most probably as christians.. am I right..? |
The atheist explanation for NDEs is not that the people experiencing such phenomena are crazy, but that they are, in fact, quite normal (as is the experience itself). NDEs and other OBEs have been scientifically (it's not a curse word) explained by neuroscientists as the result of certain chemicals in the brain.
Peace |
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seoulunitarian

Joined: 06 Jul 2004
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Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 7:41 pm Post subject: re: |
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| itaewonguy wrote: |
| thepeel wrote: |
I am more than willing to leave the idiots with their silly little imaginary friends alone. They can pray, march, whatever. I don't care. I will leave them unmolested.
However, will they accord the same to me? History and a look around our world today forces us to say, most assuredly, "NO". They will not leave me to be free of their garbage.
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you choose what channel to watch on tv! you choose to have another drink
no one is forcing you to be teaching in korea.. you choose to!!
so yes you can be left alone! but you choose to open the door everytime!
it was a free country last I left!
| mindmetoo wrote: |
| itaewonguy wrote: |
im still curious though.. if athiests have ruled out god, jesus, allah and every other god.. why do they keep coming into religious threads, religious arguments! why do they keep lurking around religion!]! |
Because politicians who believe in a bronze age sky god want to base laws upon it? Because if you don't believe what the fundies believe they'll give you death threats?
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whats that got to do with YOU searching in religious circles?
you have already made up your mind... or have you.. REALLY!?!!
all those years of religion have still left hope in you.. MIND AND BODY!
if might have left your mind, but it hasnt left your body! and you know it!
thats why will forever keep debating in religion forums or conversations
still hope... even if its .00001% you have not ruled out GOD!!!
its ok dude nothing wrong with that at all... cant blame you really..
every atheist I have ever met have a very hard time to admit that though.
but its obvious even your leader DAWKINS has admitted he believes in a slight possibility ever so slight but he does believe there is a possibilty of god!
Ill ask you guys again.. a direct question.
just answer YES or NO..
do you believe its possible that their might be a god?
just answer YES or NO |
Possible, yes. Probable, no. I actually love it when theists ask this question to atheists, because it brings home the point that nearly all scientists are much more open-minded and honest than theists when seeking truth.
"In science, 'fact' can only mean 'confirmed to such a degree that it would be perverse to withhold provisional assent'." - Stephen Jay Gould
According to this definition, it is intellectually honest and entirely logical to say that God does not exist as a matter of fact.
Peace |
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seoulunitarian

Joined: 06 Jul 2004
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Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 8:02 pm Post subject: re: |
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| itaewonguy wrote: |
| thepeel wrote: |
| [So, what you believe becomes my problem and you are no longer able to live in a bubble with your absurd imaginary friend and poorly written science fiction stories and be free from criticism. Too bad. |
well you made it this far didnt you!! but it seems its been painful for you..
why dont you just turn off the television and start to live your life!
dont care what other people think, believe or do! becuase fact is while you are a minority nothing you can do about it! so if it stings then man up!!!
fact is, people dont want a world without morality! and thats all that atheism brings! and you can debate that until the cows come home!
you guys are like a religious cult! without the religion in the title! nothing different!!! you desperatly want people to believe in your theories!!
next im going to have athiests come knocking on my door! and telling how i need to stop believing in the lord and join the fight against the christian movement!! and I thought Seventh Day Eventists were bad..
you guys are just as bad as those guys!! its like you have something to prove! like everyone is in the dark! and guys want to show everyone the light!!
if I was an atheist! I wouldnt tell anyone! I would just laugh at them! and go about my business like I do with most people in life.. why guys have to go on television and bother people... if you ask me you guys are trying to build your scientology church!! but just without god.. still looking for followers! has cult status written all over it... |
Morality is a product of evolution, natural, cultural, and sociological. Detailed morals change over time, culture, and groups, but the foundational moral sentiments are hard-wired into our brains. Read The Science of Good and Evil by Michael Shermer for a further explanation.
Peace |
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