|
Korean Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Teachers from Around the World!"
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
|
 Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 6:20 pm Post subject: |
 |
|
| Quote: |
No. They simply widen the conspiracy.
|
This was in evidence here at Dave's last week. One of them discovered the word 'disinformation' and suddenly all the conspiracists were throwing it around at anyone who didn't agree with them. "Why are you using disinformation"--clearly they were including everyone in the conspiracy. The amusing thing is several times the word was used wrong. They all jumped on the bandwagon, but clearly they didn't all get the memo with the definition of the word-of-the-week.
That brings up another peculiarity of the conspiracy crowd. For people who insist they think for themselves, they have a real tendency to flock together and run in a herd...and some of them run right off the cliff together. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
|
| Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 6:55 pm Post subject: |
|
|
That is right, Mosely. Marx and Lenin (and to a lesser extent, Stalin, who was far more paranoid and cynical than them) did this; they created the modern conspiracy-theory trope. Review some of Eisenstein's films, too. Esp. ones like Strike.
Eisenstein may have been one of the twentieth-century's most brilliant propagandists.
To show just how deeply-embedded the so-called paranoid style and conspiracy-theory thinking is in Marxist thought, which, again, is itself deeply embedded in the popular consciousness, I will cite Van der Peel at length.
Van der Peel's article, "From Gorbachev to Kosovo: Atlantic Rivalries and the Reincorporation of Eastern Europe," Review of International Political Economy 8 (2001): 275-310, indicts Clinton for spearheading Atlantic capitalism's offensive, or "a neoliberal forward thrust," into Eastern Europe and Central Asia post-1991. "[T]here was an offensive mood brewing in the US when the Democrats took over the presidency [1993] (293)."
Most relevant to this discussion is Van der Peel's views on what really must have been behind the Soviet Union's collapse and various scandals and deaths of some Continental leaders who had opposed American imperialism. As far as American complicity in Soviet Russia's collapse, Van der Peel puts forward the usual allegation: if America did not perpetrate it, then America failed to stop it.
Then, when Germany stood in America's way, America knocked it down...
| Kees Van der Peel wrote: |
With no comprehensive Western strategy in place...the challenge of Germany leading the EC towards modernized corporate liberalism, coupled to greater reliance on trade and integration with the former Soviet bloc, was met by other means -- or so it would seem. Between November 1989 and mid-1991, the head of the Deutsche Bank, Herrhausen, was assassinated; Lafontaine's candidacy for the Chancelorship fell through after an attempt on his life that knocked him off the political stage; the head of the privatization trust for East Germany, Rohwedder, was assassinated; and CDU modernizer Lothar Spath was removed by a scandal...the quarters from which such acts of violence may have been orchestrated cannot easily be identified, and the debate on them has only been tentatively opened by investigative journalism...
What is certain...is that the political thrust and economic strategy which would have lent the modernized corporate liberal concept its distinctly European orientation, were seriously compromised at a critical junction. (287). |
| Kees Van der Peel wrote: |
| Under Jacques Attali, a Mitterand intimate and critical connoisseur of the investment banking world, the EBRD had worked to shore up viable state enterprise in the former Soviet bloc countries. It expressly sought to keep Western finance out of the mafia economy's reach. In mid-1993, Attali was removed from his post after a sustained smear campaign (294). |
Van der Peel declines to be more specific or cite any sources. But the impression be conveys via innuendo is clear enough: the American govt did this, he alleges. He would and does dismiss any locally-derived scandal not connected to the bigger picture as a lie; and each incident must be part of a larger picture that explains everything according to America's master plan.
Throughout the 1990s, the Clinton Administration bullied France and Germany into submission. The capstone event was the Yugoslav War, where Milosevic was unfairly maligned, by Americans looking for pretexts: "There was no shortage of atrocities on the ground, but nothing that would warrant the term 'genocide'" (301). Clinton fired Warren Christopher and replaced him with Madeleine Albright, who would enthusiastically do America's dirty work. "Christopher was judged too cautious to function in an offensive setting..." (296).
Judged by whom? By Clinton? Clinton fired Christopher? News to me. I would like to see Van der Peel's sources on this.
Again, then, no sources cited. This failure to cite sufficient evidence -- or, in many cases, any evidence at all -- and to openly apologize for and defend leaders like Milosevic reamain two of the conspiracy-theory worldview's most salient features, in addition to those already mentioned in several posts, above. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
igotthisguitar
Joined: 08 Apr 2003
Location: South Korea (Permanent Vacation)
|
| Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 7:12 pm Post subject: |
|
|
"And by their fruits ye shall know them ..."
Twenty-Five Rules of Disinformation
1. Hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil
2. Become incredulous and indignant
3. Create rumor mongers
4. Use a straw man
5. Sidetrack opponents with name calling, ridicule
6. Hit and Run
7. Question motives
8. Invoke authority
9. Play Dumb
10. Associate opponent charges with old news
11. Establish and rely upon fall-back positions
12. Enigmas have no solution
13. Alice in Wonderland Logic
14. Demand complete solutions
15. Fit the facts to alternate conclusions
16. Vanish evidence and witnesses
17. Change the subject
18. Emotionalize, Antagonize, and Goad
19. Ignore facts, demand impossible proofs
20. False evidence
21. Call a Grand Jury, Special Prosecutor
22. Manufacture a new truth
23. Create bigger distractions
24. Silence critics
25. Vanish
Eight Traits of The Disinformationalist
1. Avoidance
2. Selectivity
3. Coincidental
4. Teamwork
5. Anti-conspiratorial
6. Artificial Emotions
7. Inconsistent
8. Newly Discovered: Time Constant
http://www.ominous-valve.com/blog/25ways.html |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
|
| Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 7:45 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Is anyone here planting false information in the press to mislead an enemy? Say, as when Allied forces led the Germans to believe DDay would occur somewhere besides Normandy, to cite a classic example?
No? Then there can be no "disinformation" or "black propaganda" campaigns. This is an obscure, internet message board where anonymous posters, most of whom teach English at hogwons, exchange views recreationally. World politics are not playing out here; this is not the center of the world, not even close; and no one is out to get you. Idiot.
Last edited by Gopher on Sun Jan 06, 2008 7:46 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
|
| Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 7:45 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| igotthisguitar wrote: |
"And by their fruits ye shall know them ..."
Twenty-Five Rules of Disinformation
1. Hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil
2. Become incredulous and indignant
3. Create rumor mongers
4. Use a straw man
5. Sidetrack opponents with name calling, ridicule
6. Hit and Run
7. Question motives
8. Invoke authority
9. Play Dumb
10. Associate opponent charges with old news
11. Establish and rely upon fall-back positions
12. Enigmas have no solution
13. Alice in Wonderland Logic
14. Demand complete solutions
15. Fit the facts to alternate conclusions
16. Vanish evidence and witnesses
17. Change the subject
18. Emotionalize, Antagonize, and Goad
19. Ignore facts, demand impossible proofs
20. False evidence
21. Call a Grand Jury, Special Prosecutor
22. Manufacture a new truth
23. Create bigger distractions
24. Silence critics
25. Vanish
|
Wow, you've just described conspiracy theorists to a T. Well done. Those are indeed the tactics the CT's employ when challenged. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
igotthisguitar
Joined: 08 Apr 2003
Location: South Korea (Permanent Vacation)
|
| Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 7:49 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Gopher wrote: |
This is an obscure, internet message board where anonymous posters, most of whom teach English at hogwons, exchange views recreationally.
World politics are not playing out here; this is not the center of the world, not even close;
and no one is out to get you.
Idiot. |
See e.g. rules #2, 5, 17, 23 & 24. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
igotthisguitar
Joined: 08 Apr 2003
Location: South Korea (Permanent Vacation)
|
| Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 7:56 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Facebook Chooses Huckabee !!
| Beeyee wrote: |
| mithridates wrote: |
http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/01/05/551646.aspx
| Quote: |
Facebook chooses Huckabee, so far
Posted: Saturday, January 05, 2008 8:49 PM by Domenico Montanaro
From NBC's Andy Merten
As far as Facebook users are concerned, Huckabee pulled ahead of McCain since the last time we reported this poll:
Giuliani 5%
Thompson 4%
Huckabee 22%
McCain 15%
Romney 11%
Paul 43%
About 5,500 responded. |
|
And Ron Paul 21% ahead of Huckabee. |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
|
| Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 8:05 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| igotthisguitar wrote: |
"And by their fruits ye shall know them ..."
Twenty-Five Rules of Disinformation
|
Rules you follow, oddly. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
|
| Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 8:22 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Gopher wrote: |
Is anyone here planting false information in the press to mislead an enemy? Say, as when Allied forces led the Germans to believe DDay would occur somewhere besides Normandy, to cite a classic example?
No? Then there can be no "disinformation" or "black propaganda" campaigns. |
As I stated in a post way before last week, disinformation is a tactic used by intelligence agencies to purposely mislead.
So in your example, is this a conspiracy, a conspiracy theory, a fact, a combination, or something else? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
igotthisguitar
Joined: 08 Apr 2003
Location: South Korea (Permanent Vacation)
|
| Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 8:31 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| bacasper wrote: |
| As I stated in a post way before last week, disinformation is a tactic used by intelligence agencies to purposely mislead. |
Hey, now that's just plain ... paranoid  |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
regicide
Joined: 01 Sep 2006
Location: United States
|
| Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 10:44 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| igotthisguitar wrote: |
| bacasper wrote: |
| As I stated in a post way before last week, disinformation is a tactic used by intelligence agencies to purposely mislead. |
Hey, now that's just plain ... paranoid |
That is right. There are a lot of confused people here making up their own version of the term disinformation.
Disinformation is used to cover up a false story or report. What the little guy ( otherwise known as a "conspiracy theorist" ) does when he writes about a previously written false story or report by an official ENTITY is NOT disinformation. He is simply debunking the official story.
There are way too many know-it-alls here.
Last edited by regicide on Sun Jan 06, 2008 11:40 pm; edited 2 times in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
|
| Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 11:08 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| regicide wrote: |
| ...debunking the official story. ( the Big Lie ) |
Add this morsel to our general definition of the conspiracy-theory worldview, in case we have not yet fully articulated it: anything the American govt claims is "the official story" and necessarily not only a lie, but "the Big Lie" a la Goebbels.
This statement also illustrates conspiracy-theorists' self-righteousness and sense of mission. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
regicide
Joined: 01 Sep 2006
Location: United States
|
| Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 11:47 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Gopher wrote: |
| regicide wrote: |
| ...debunking the official story. ( the Big Lie ) |
Add this morsel to our general definition of the conspiracy-theory worldview, in case we have not yet fully articulated it: anything the American govt claims is "the official story" and necessarily not only a lie, but "the Big Lie" a la Goebbels.
This statement also illustrates conspiracy-theorists' self-righteousness and sense of mission. |
And you, once again demonstrate your arrogance and superiority complex; which causes you to constantly attempt to validate your pathetic existance here on this dissussion board. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
|
| Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 11:56 pm Post subject: |
|
|
"My pathetic existance?"
This coming from the guy who will obsess on JFK every single day for the rest of his life...? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
|
| Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 12:05 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| Marx and Lenin... created the modern conspiracy-theory trope |
Can anyone point me toward a scholarly work that elaborates on this?
In my reading so far, the only mention Marxists have gotten is that they were annoyed at being labelled secular milleniarians. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
