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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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 Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 12:10 am Post subject: |
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Have you ever read Lenin's Imperialism: the Highest Stage of Capitalism? The book that has corporations and banks manipulating govts and inducing wars to further their narrow interests...? Or how about what Khrushchev alleged about the U-2 incident (CIA and military blackmailing the President to continue the Cold War indefinitely rather than a mere unlucky flight)...?
The modern conspiracy-theory trope comes from Marx and Lenin and those who have read them dogmatically. It has surely morphed into all kinds of things. But this represents its origins.
Claims like "it's all about oil," for example, derive directly from Marx's allegation that national govts serve as the business community's handmaidens... |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 12:42 am Post subject: |
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| I understand why you are asserting it, but I'd like to read a scholarly work that, ummm...connects the dots, as they say. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 12:54 am Post subject: |
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Not aware of any. Most professional scholars disdain conspiracy-theory discussions, and rightly so. I am connecting my own dots, explaining my reasoning, and making my own argument on this point. For one thing, those scholars I personally know who subscribe to conspiracy theories and who focus on pretexts like Maine, Tonkin, 9/11, etc., are Marxist to the core.
If you really need an authority, you might find something if you did a literature search on "conspiracy theories" or "origins of conspiracy theories" on any number of databases. Personally, it seems clear enough based on what I have read; and I am about to reread Marx's Eighteenth Brumaire, which contains many such allegations. As always, you may take it or leave it. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 3:56 am Post subject: |
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I'm asking because the book I quoted above mentioned Marxism as one of the secular millenarian groups, and talked about modern conspiracy theory having its roots in both religious and secular millenarianism, it didn't go into the history. The focus of the book was on the development of the new conspiracy theories of the last 40 years.
With all due respect, the next time conspiracy theory comes up in a conversation over a beer, I don't want to have to fall back on saying, "Well, gopher said, "...". Somehow I don't think that would carry a lot of weight.  (And it WILL come up...one of my co-workers is regi's twin.) |
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moosehead
Joined: 05 May 2007
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| Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 4:30 am Post subject: |
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| igotthisguitar wrote: |
"And by their fruits ye shall know them ..."
Twenty-Five Rules of Disinformation
1. Hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil
2. Become incredulous and indignant
3. Create rumor mongers
4. Use a straw man
5. Sidetrack opponents with name calling, ridicule
6. Hit and Run
7. Question motives
8. Invoke authority
9. Play Dumb
10. Associate opponent charges with old news
11. Establish and rely upon fall-back positions
12. Enigmas have no solution
13. Alice in Wonderland Logic
14. Demand complete solutions
15. Fit the facts to alternate conclusions
16. Vanish evidence and witnesses
17. Change the subject
18. Emotionalize, Antagonize, and Goad
19. Ignore facts, demand impossible proofs
20. False evidence
21. Call a Grand Jury, Special Prosecutor
22. Manufacture a new truth
23. Create bigger distractions
24. Silence critics
25. Vanish
Eight Traits of The Disinformationalist
1. Avoidance
2. Selectivity
3. Coincidental
4. Teamwork
5. Anti-conspiratorial
6. Artificial Emotions
7. Inconsistent
8. Newly Discovered: Time Constant
http://www.ominous-valve.com/blog/25ways.html |
a very good list; needs one more item nixon was quite fond of - create a diversion by dropping bombs on a foreign country - of course one might have to manufacture a reason for it - actually i think clinton also did some of this during his ordeal regarding the lewinsky affair
unfortunately, cambodia was nixon's choice - every time something new came out regarding watergate and the fellows that perped the dem hdqtrs, more bombs would fall. |
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igotthisguitar
Joined: 08 Apr 2003
Location: South Korea (Permanent Vacation)
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| Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 5:07 am Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
Claims like "it's all about oil," for example, derive directly from Marx's allegation that
national govts serve as the business community's handmaidens... |
You disagree do you?
"Fascism should more appropriately be called Corporatism because it is ...
a merger of state and corporate power."
Benito Mussolini
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporatism
Last edited by igotthisguitar on Mon Jan 07, 2008 6:57 am; edited 2 times in total |
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luvnpeas
Joined: 03 Aug 2006
Location: somewhere i have never travelled
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| Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 5:16 am Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
Who is a conspiracy theorist?
He is one whom shackles himself in chains of his own theories of powerlessness, resentment, and estrangement. He is one for whom intellectual investigations of why things have come to be are interrupted by the intercession of the ever tyrannical (and fictional) 'the man.' He is an obsessive, not a little bit narcissistic, and happens to be a stain on internet forums besides.
But far worse than anything else, a conspiracy theorist is a bore. |
You're just out to get us. |
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 5:20 am Post subject: |
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| moosehead wrote: |
a very good list; needs one more item nixon was quite fond of - create a diversion by dropping bombs on a foreign country - of course one might have to manufacture a reason for it - actually i think clinton also did some of this during his ordeal regarding the lewinsky affair
unfortunately, cambodia was nixon's choice - every time something new came out regarding watergate and the fellows that perped the dem hdqtrs, more bombs would fall. |
I don't know that I would call that "disinformation." That's called "war crime.' |
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 5:30 am Post subject: |
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| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
| This was in evidence here at Dave's last week. One of them discovered the word 'disinformation' and suddenly all the conspiracists were throwing it around at anyone who didn't agree with them. |
Who are "the conspiracists?" Are they always the same people? If you believe in one conspiracy does that mean you believe in all of them?
If there are 10 conspiracy theories and I believe in 5 of them, am I a conspiracy theorist? Must I believe in 0 to not be considered among that group?
And those not among "the conspiracists," what do you believe? That people never plan anything together? |
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Mosley
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 6:02 am Post subject: Ya-ta boy |
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Ya-ta: Re.: Marxism(and Leninism) & its connections to CTs: just for starters, you might consult the works I mentioned a page or two ago. Maybe also I. Berlin's "The Hedgehog & the Fox". And also by Paul Johnson: MODERN TIMES.
Gopher: When you mentioned Lenin as well as Marx a page ago, yes, it was Lenin's work on imperialism that immediately sprang to mind! Kudos! |
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igotthisguitar
Joined: 08 Apr 2003
Location: South Korea (Permanent Vacation)
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| Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 7:01 am Post subject: |
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| bacasper wrote: |
| moosehead wrote: |
a very good list; needs one more item nixon was quite fond of - create a diversion by dropping bombs on a foreign country - of course one might have to manufacture a reason for it - actually i think clinton also did some of this during his ordeal regarding the lewinsky affair
unfortunately, cambodia was nixon's choice - every time something new came out regarding watergate and the fellows that perped the dem hdqtrs, more bombs would fall. |
I don't know that I would call that "disinformation." That's called "war crime.' |
Double-think. War IS a crime. Why must we say the same thing twice?
Nixon, Klinton ... good examples, yes.
WAG THE DOG.
Every conspiracy (assuming they can even possibly ever occur)
inevitably comes with an attempted disinfo-laced "cover-up".
Cover-ups are simply another layer to the deception, denial.
Gopher? McGarrett? Me Mind Joo? |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 7:14 am Post subject: |
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| igotthisguitar wrote: |
| bacasper wrote: |
| moosehead wrote: |
a very good list; needs one more item nixon was quite fond of - create a diversion by dropping bombs on a foreign country - of course one might have to manufacture a reason for it - actually i think clinton also did some of this during his ordeal regarding the lewinsky affair
unfortunately, cambodia was nixon's choice - every time something new came out regarding watergate and the fellows that perped the dem hdqtrs, more bombs would fall. |
I don't know that I would call that "disinformation." That's called "war crime.' |
Double-think. War IS a crime. Why must we say the same thing twice?
Nixon, Klinton ... good examples, yes.
WAG THE DOG.
Every conspiracy (assuming they can even possibly ever occur)
inevitably comes with an attempted disinfo-laced "cover-up".
Cover-ups are simply another layer to the deception, denial.
Gopher? McGarrett? Me Mind Joo? |
Hey conspiracy theorists are you proud to have Igothisguitar as one of your own? |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 7:15 am Post subject: |
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| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
| ...I don't want to have to fall back on saying, "Well, gopher said..." |
Ha.
I know what you mean. But you do not necessarily need to cite an authority to make a good argument, as you know. Check out Charles Sellers's The Market Revolution and John Larson's Internal Improvement. Both dogmatic Marxists (the former more overtly than the latter). Both allege the bourgeoisie seized American democracy from "the people" and instituted a secret dictatorship. Both of them, loike so many professional historians writing from a leftist perspective, waste our time with many pages designed to inform us what they personally approve of and do not approve of in American history. There is more to their arguments that this, but I am sure you see why I would cite them in this discussion.
For example, Sellers alleges the bourgeoisie's agents -- the lawyers -- seized the legistlature, courts, and juries by the mid-nineteenth century. Larson has railroads and other corporations seizing govt functions -- internal improvements -- and forcing "the people" to go along.
Marxism simply does not function as a worldview without conspiracies and "what's really happening." Indeed Marxism presupposes conspiracies. It sets its disciples off on missions to expose them. There is, of course, more to Marxism than this, and I acknowledge that some Marxist insight is valuable, but I am sure you get my point.
________
Igotthisguitar: you know, I like it when you spell "Clinton" with a "K." Looks more like "Klingon" and makes Clinton sound like a badass president.
Also, on a recent trip to South America, I saw anarchist graffiti hurling allegations about Am�rika Latina and remembered you.
Cheers. |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 3:03 pm Post subject: |
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| igotthisguitar wrote: |
Double-think. War IS a crime. Why must we say the same thing twice? |
For someone I'm sure who sees WWII as theater stage managed by Jewish bankers, of course you'd see all war as a crime. |
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igotthisguitar
Joined: 08 Apr 2003
Location: South Korea (Permanent Vacation)
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| Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 5:43 am Post subject: |
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| mindmetoo wrote: |
| igotthisguitar wrote: |
Double-think. War IS a crime. Why must we say the same thing twice? |
For someone I'm sure who sees WWII as theater stage managed by Jewish bankers,
of course you'd see all war as a crime. |
War has long been a major crime, regardless of major world Zionist conspiracies ... or not.
THOU SHALT NOT KILL!
Nice try  |
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