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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003 Location: Established in 1994
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Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 12:40 pm Post subject: |
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| What's the answer? Clearly the answer is kill all Muslims, maybe all Arabs. |
You're pandering to the peel. He'll have wet dreams all night. Shame on you.
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| I think what this study shows is how bad the Arab governments are. I don't think it is poverty that is the root cause for this illiteracy but instead it is the leadership in the Arab world. |
Bingo.
There is no reason the next Google couldn't come from the Arab world if their governments were doing their job, which is to arrange things so the people's natural abilities could be utilized. The basic job of any government is to provide clean water, sanitation systems, transportation and communication systems, basic health care, security and schools. |
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nicholas_chiasson

Joined: 14 Jun 2007 Location: Samcheok
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Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 2:26 pm Post subject: |
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| one of the reasons for arab illiteracy...is a shortage of stuff to read. With schooling optional, many arabs actually forget how to read as there are fewer books published in arabic than say...finnish. This leads to a lack of interest in reading. In fact the only reason the mid-east was literate at all is to read the Koran. |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 3:57 pm Post subject: |
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| nicholas_chiasson wrote: |
| one of the reasons for arab illiteracy...is a shortage of stuff to read. With schooling optional, many arabs actually forget how to read as there are fewer books published in arabic than say...finnish. This leads to a lack of interest in reading. In fact the only reason the mid-east was literate at all is to read the Koran. |
Yes, this is true. Sadly there is very little modern Arab literature beyond Naguib Mahfouz. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003 Location: Established in 1994
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Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 5:27 pm Post subject: |
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| They need an Andrew Carnegie to set up some libraries. Somebody call Bill Gates or George Soros. I'm serious. I wasn't aware that there aren't many books published in Arabic. I suppose it makes sense when you think about how poor the countries are. |
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nicholas_chiasson

Joined: 14 Jun 2007 Location: Samcheok
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Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 9:57 pm Post subject: |
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| bucheon bum wrote: |
Yes, this is true. Sadly there is very little modern Arab literature beyond Naguib Mahfouz. |
-There is also the issue of ilustration being -bad- which means children of fundie islam parents don't get picture books. Imagine a religon that forbade Good Night Moon. |
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ddeubel

Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 10:49 pm Post subject: |
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bucheon bum wrote:
Yes, this is true. Sadly there is very little modern Arab literature beyond Naguib Mahfouz.
-There is also the issue of ilustration being -bad- which means children of fundie islam parents don't get picture books. Imagine a religon that forbade Good Night Moon. |
A perfect example of how ignorance perpetuates....like that age old telephone game..... if this thread continued, we'd soon have it that arabs can't even think (because they can't read and then there is no writing and then there is no child picture books and then no creativity in youth and then .....)
Such nonsense and anyone who knows anything about poetry can only laugh at the claim above, madly not sadly laugh. Same with literature.
The claim would read better as -
Yes, this is true. Sadly there is very little known about modern Arab literature beyond Naguib Mahfouz.
Who's next? The Persians? The Kenyans? What childish stereotyping.
DD |
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Gopher

Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 10:54 pm Post subject: |
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"Tribute to Edward Said"
| ddeubel wrote: |
A perfect example
of how ignorance perpetuates...
like that age old telephone game.
...if this thread continued,
we'd soon have it that arabs can't even think
(because they can't read
and then there is no writing
and then there is no child picture books
and then no creativity in youth
and then...)
Such nonsense
and anyone who knows anything about poetry
can only laugh at the claim above,
madly not sadly laugh.
Same with literature.
The claim would read better as --
Yes, this is true.
Sadly there is very little known about modern Arab literature
beyond Naguib Mahfouz.
Who's next?
The Persians?
The Kenyans?
What childish stereotyping.
DD |
Your prose is much more pleasing to read in this form, Ddeubel. Sometimes I wonder if you have not missed a greater calling in life. |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 11:27 pm Post subject: |
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| ddeubel wrote: |
| Quote: |
bucheon bum wrote:
Yes, this is true. Sadly there is very little modern Arab literature beyond Naguib Mahfouz.
-There is also the issue of ilustration being -bad- which means children of fundie islam parents don't get picture books. Imagine a religon that forbade Good Night Moon. |
A perfect example of how ignorance perpetuates....like that age old telephone game..... if this thread continued, we'd soon have it that arabs can't even think (because they can't read and then there is no writing and then there is no child picture books and then no creativity in youth and then .....)
Such nonsense and anyone who knows anything about poetry can only laugh at the claim above, madly not sadly laugh. Same with literature.
The claim would read better as -
Yes, this is true. Sadly there is very little known about modern Arab literature beyond Naguib Mahfouz.
Who's next? The Persians? The Kenyans? What childish stereotyping.
DD |
I didn't say anything about poetry, merely literature.
Why is it more novels are published in Finland than in the Arab world? |
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dogbert

Joined: 29 Jan 2003 Location: Killbox 90210
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Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 11:29 pm Post subject: |
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| bucheon bum wrote: |
| nicholas_chiasson wrote: |
| one of the reasons for arab illiteracy...is a shortage of stuff to read. With schooling optional, many arabs actually forget how to read as there are fewer books published in arabic than say...finnish. This leads to a lack of interest in reading. In fact the only reason the mid-east was literate at all is to read the Koran. |
Yes, this is true. Sadly there is very little modern Arab literature beyond Naguib Mahfouz. |
And there is virtually no extant pre-Islamic Arabic writing at all. |
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wannago
Joined: 16 Apr 2004
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Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 11:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Probably the reason that you don't see modern literature coming from the Arabs is that reading itself is not a high priority for them. Go to an airport in North America or Europe and watch how many people are reading as they wait. Then, go to an airport in the Middle East. You will see far fewer people reading...and the ones that are will be European or American. No, not all..I'm not trying to make this a racial thing, but Arabs simply do not read for pleasure...or for much else. |
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nicholas_chiasson

Joined: 14 Jun 2007 Location: Samcheok
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Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 11:56 pm Post subject: |
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| ddeubel wrote: |
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bucheon bum wrote:
Yes, this is true. Sadly there is very little modern Arab literature beyond Naguib Mahfouz.
-There is also the issue of ilustration being -bad- which means children of fundie islam parents don't get picture books. Imagine a religon that forbade Good Night Moon. |
A perfect example of how ignorance perpetuates....like that age old telephone game..... if this thread continued, we'd soon have it that arabs can't even think (because they can't read and then there is no writing and then there is no child picture books and then no creativity in youth and then .....)
Such nonsense and anyone who knows anything about poetry can only laugh at the claim above, madly not sadly laugh. Same with literature.
The claim would read better as -
Yes, this is true. Sadly there is very little known about modern Arab literature beyond Naguib Mahfouz.
Who's next? The Persians? The Kenyans? What childish stereotyping.
DD |
I'm syrian, studied Arabic, my grandmother is still fluent, my greatgrandfather never knew English. In addition the ONLY person in Allentown PA who could read the 1000 and 1 nights is Arabic translation was my Grandmother's cousin. Yeah. Arabs ARE illiterate because there is nothing to read. Its one of the reasons it is so easy to squash the media in those countries. Small Press Newspapers don't make any money.
-In traditional arab towns in the Levant it was not uncommon for one guy to read the news.
-You're going to respond with "Well when I was in Baghdad everyone could read even the 4 year olds, and the rivers were full of chocolate before the Americans invaded." |
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ddeubel

Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 3:08 am Post subject: |
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I'm not going to go with the "my thing is bigger". You didn't get my point.
I'm not at all denying there is Arab illiteracy. But to make the leap that it is because there is no modern literature is just flatly false. There is a grand and wise arab "literati" that produces much fine writing. Writing of a worldly standard. There is more than enough to read for literacy.
You put the cart before the horse my friend. Lack of reading material does not cause illiteracy in ANY case. It is a multiplicity of factors. Further, illiteracy I will say does as you indicate result in a lack of widespread reading material........but not literature. Fine and noble literature. And for literature of a high standard to be disseminated, you don't need a plethora of writers. You only need a distribution system and desire/demand.
Have you heard of Dr. Jayyusi? I will not reference her political stance but her anthology of Modern Arab poetry is outstanding. http://www.sakakini.org/literature/literature.htm
DD |
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nicholas_chiasson

Joined: 14 Jun 2007 Location: Samcheok
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Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 4:42 am Post subject: |
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But who reads it? A TINY educated class. Where it is permitted to be published at all. There is no 'popular' literature in the Arab world. Tom Clancy and Harry Potter have been translated into other langauges because of the need for literature. However there are 1 billion chinese speakers. Yet there are more famous Japanese Novelists being read today in translation thant Chinese Novels. Why? Because the works of Japanese writers capture the 'popular' imaginiation. The works of Arab writers are still seen as elite and tracked down.
-I think you define 'Literature' as high grade reading material. I'm thinking of it as the printed page. In other words I don't consider Clive Custlet or most of Stephen King to be 'Literature'...but they are 'literature'.
Yet even most Arabs are aware of the anti-cultural trend of Islamic fundamentalist thought. The Shi'a especially are considered 'uncultured' and the Wahabist thought of SA are the most famous examples. Rushdie is no Arab being Persian and all, but the modern middle east is full of politicly repressive regimes-that suffer china's fate-or theocratic regimes-that issue fatwa on writers they have issues with.
-I thinkthat im writing this at 10:30 shows I'm bored. Look what Gangwon does to a guy. Islamic Literature...at should be out surrounded by beautiful women not writing words like fatwa. |
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ddeubel

Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 5:22 am Post subject: |
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| But who reads it? A TINY educated class. |
Your point is well taken, as to your Henry Millerian spirit of damn those "words" and let's live.
Still, this is where is starts and did start in the west. With a cultured class. However much we detest the notion of an "elite". We should not forsake this portion of the Arab world and what has been missing to fight those Wahabists and intolerant SOBs is just that - ideas. Not bombs and keeping them in misery.
I also will insist that in those parts of the Arab world (such a such a such a minority of people) like Saudi Arabia and Dubai and Bahrain, where there is wealth and leisure, there is a suffit of ideas and a unequivical standard of literacy. Then you go to places like Egypt or Palestine or Iraq and the reality is poverty. Literacy needs leisure which equates to education in ones youth. Not worrying about one's next meal.
I will also say that there is a lot more of a connection to an oral culture and story telling/music than in many other cultures. This too has its own educating effect and takes away from "book" time. But in no way means, backwardness. Just something different.
I"m never bored. I'm here or there..........bored is like meeting like once said Valery. Never met anything like myself...
DD |
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Roch
Joined: 24 Apr 2003 Location: Seoul
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Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 8:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Matt_22 wrote: |
| VanIslander wrote: |
and while numbers vary for USA from absurdly low 10 million up to disturbingly high 150 million, there must be at least 50 million illiterate Americans by any reasonable assessment. |
LOL
don't stop there! there's gotta be at least 100 billion or so illiterate amerikans. igotthisguitar done told me so last week. |
Aren't immigrants included in the stats? |
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