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endo
Joined: 14 Mar 2004
Location: Seoul...my home
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 Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 5:12 pm Post subject: |
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| enomshiki wrote: |
not to mention, if chinese claim on koguryo wasn't bad enough, they now claim baekje and silla were part of china. there are also lot of history bullsh!t claims from chinese side.
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That may be bad, but at least they are not prclaiming that they were the ancient Sumerians  |
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doggyji
Joined: 21 Feb 2006
Location: Toronto - Hamilton - Vineland - St. Catherines
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| Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 2:19 pm Post subject: |
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This topic just calls a poster named doggyji. Especially when you have a poster like Butterfly going WOW, this from KBS!!! I got lots of school work to do. Can't you guys spare me some time. Well, I had so much fun with Japanese nationalists for a long while. I'm too familiar with all this. It seems sometimes too insular self-reinforcing conventional wisdom of Dave's (hat tips to billybrobby) will never be able to hack it so let me give you my input a little. 
Butterfly, I already posted about that video before here on Dave's a while ago because there was a poster who got all surprised and went against Koreans like you in a very corny fashion. You watched this video, right? I guess it's just yet another attempt by an Asian troll to make Koreans look weird and he just successfully deceived one more person right here. Congrats. Mixwwwxim is not the original poster of this video. I think it was first translated and posted by a Japanese but I cannot be so sure about this now. There's this century-old history book called 환단고기(한단고기). This KBS documentary just "goes over" the content of that book (the part in the video) and later examines what's even distantly possible, what's simply impossible, how the book might have been written by whom and why the mainstream academia cannot take it seriously (this latter part is apparently not shown in the video. It's an hour-long show, FYI) But, of course, if you watch just this portion of the program, it's understandable that you mutter to yourself "even KBS says crap like this! These Koreans!" Taking things out of the context strategy successful � checked. Just watch out next time. Also, there is this Korean term 환빠 to ridicule people who take that book seriously. So you have an idea now.
There are whole lot of Japanese YouTubers. Once Newsweek reported the number of Japanese users of YouTube was 6.4 million per month in 2006. And then there are whole lot of online anti-Korean Japanese "agents". I call them agents because they deliberately make/edit misleading videos, develop theories, sometimes even impersonate Koreans and say utter stupid things (once this guy got caught because he used an impossible romanization of a Korean name), etc, and just devote a lot of their precious time in bashing Korea in every imaginable way. You just watched this "Austrailians are racists" video as a reaction to Australian anti-whaling protests. You can safely assume you get 1000 times more dedication towards Koreans but they are mainly in Japanese, so you won't likely come across them. Racetraitor once mentioned even his bingo board posted on Dave�s was taken and used on some random Japanese internet boards. I take it that there might be a few Japanese (or anti-Korean Japanese-speaking Japanophiles) monitoring this site looking for Korea-bashing materials (hi there) and of course, this is not a bad one. For the record, I'm not saying Korean netizens can take any higher moral ground. There are also just bunch of weirdos on the Korean internet. They just lack deliberateness and devotion when it comes to stalking so I guess my respect goes for Japanese trolls. (But these days you can even find Korean anti-Japanese database as a reaction to anti-Korean rhetorics on the Japanese internet). Also, it really depends on what sites you go. 2CH is the hotbed for Japanese uber racists/nationalists and YouTube is one of their good tools. However, if you go to, say, Yahoo Japan, you will see lots of level-headed Japanese.
| junkmail wrote: |
| The truth is that most of their 'culture' Japan gave to them and they renamed it and altered the history books a 'little'. |
Most of their culture. Right. Name them all and let's see it's really most of them. If you look at the whole length of Korea-Japan interchanges, you should realize Japan hasn't been on the position of a giver for that long. But in this recent time, I should say the Japanese influence towards Korea has been big, especially in terms of modern technology.
| Suwoner10 wrote: |
| browneyedgirl wrote: |
| Was that the style of dress, or just something breast-feeding mothers wore? I forget which century, but I know European courtesans had similar peek-a-boo dresses they'd wear out in public. |
link or pics? |
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Far from being a sign of tawdriness, Jones said breast exposure during the 1600s could indicate a woman's virtue. "The exposure of the breast was a display of the classical and youthful beauty of the woman � she was showing her 'apple like' unused Venus breasts," [Angela McShane Jones, a lecturer in history at University of Warwick in Coventry, England] said. "This was a display of her virtue, her beauty, and her youth. Upper class women maintained the quality of their breasts by not breast feeding their children and passing them on to wet nurses."
Bernard Capp, professor of history at the University of Warwick, agrees that breast exposure was prevalent, and not scandalous, during certain periods of British history. Capp said during these times, "Revealing attire � worn in the right social spaces � could be fully compatible with virtue and honor."
Breast-displaying fashion had a number of comebacks in the 18th and 19th century, including during the Victorian era. Jones said during many of these bust-baring periods it would have been shocking for a woman to show her shoulders or legs, which were more associated with male sexuality. "I think that parts of the body are sexualized and desexualized for a whole range of reasons," she said. "The breasts have become a part of the body which is seen as entirely sexual, but that could change again."
http://atheism.about.com/b/2004/05/27/breast-exposure-in-the-1700s.htm |
| Quote: |
"Did you know that breast exposure was almost an exclusive Continental custom a couple of centuries back?"
Of course I knew it. Exposing ladies breasts is nothing new. In the Middle Ages, women thought nothing of parading with their breasts "au naturelle". Except of course during the rainy season, during the winter and during those windy autumn days. The article quotes an excerpt from a book written by a curious French academician of the 17th century:
"I missed those pairs of round and firm breasts that our Parisiennes parade for the benefit of humanity. I missed them by having had to spend several weeks in the American colonies. Used as I was to Paris, Florence and London and the display of breasts everywhere on the continent, I felt deprived the moment I arrived in Philadelphia at the beginning of summer. I am beginning to understand the nature of the repression that assails the male colonists "
Among the interesting references is the one about the fact that Queens and courtesans, relatives, mistresses and other ladies in court, started the fashion of baring their breasts as a titillation message not limited to their social environment but also to the populace. This custom, popular in the 15th , 16th and 17th centuries in Europe, had its own versions; in some royal courts both breast were revealed while in others, only one was given the privilege of attracting those lascivious looks. Janet Jackson could uncover both platforms in those days and no one would pay much attention.
The fashion in those days also dictated that court ladies and courtesans wear extremely low cut dcollet fashions that revealed breasts and, sometimes, nipples. Painters of that era avoided portraits of ladies showing their breasts, except in few instances. Queen Mary II of England, wife of William of Orange, has been portrayed baring her breasts in several woodcuts (1689-1694)
But not all ladies went the bare route. Some discovered that a great deal of interest could be gained when breasts were pressed together to create an enticing cleavage. Observers at the time associated the interest and in some cases obsession with women's breast as an atavistic reminder of our breast feedings days and the pleasure that was derived by mother and child in the performance of the act. In the end, the cleavage turned into another form of enticing men to look but not to touch.
More from the French author:
"Except in some African tribes and some of the Polynesian islands, breast exposure is generally limited to the feeding of babies. Breasts are seldom exposed in celebrations and popular events. The American colonists are deeply religious and consider any sort of display of a person's body except hands, face and arms as signs of moral turpitude and an invitation to carnal adventures. Women dress with long skirts, blouses that extend from the neck to the wrists and cover their heads with a variety of hats, scarves and veils. There is no way to admire the breasts of those healthy young colonists who are aware of their concealed charms and the curiosity that they elicit."
http://www.helium.com/tm/489292/cleavage-festivalnow-interesting-research |
As for the breat exposure in the late Chosun era, just as you didn't know about the European bare-breast fashion, not many Koreans have heard or seen it before so when they are first asked about it, of course, they get puzzled.
| Quote: |
| However, I think it is interesting to see the response other nations make to the Korean claims that, for example, Confucius was Korean and that Koreans invented the Chinese writing system. |
Quotes from the second video posted by dalpengi:
"South Korea is now stating that Confucius, who we respect as well, was actually Korean."
There might be a few individual theorists (I guess it's the whole Dongyi argument and I'm almost sure you can find a Chinese among 1.3 billions who claims the first airplane was invented by Chinese and what not in this way) but South Korea, a country, is now (officially) stating what? Say that again?
"They are also stating that Chinese characters were invented by Korea as well."
Same as the Confucius bit.
"This was from a article from China�s Peoples Republic Daily Newspaper."
Okay, this is from a Chinese news source.
"Activists from both China and Korea are having a huge debate over this�"
Yeah? At least, I can safely say 99% of Koreans didn't even know if there was such a HUGE debate until it was reported back that Chinese media began accusing Koreans of this and that. Then, they made it a hobby. If you are curious, get out and ask random Koreans if they think Koreans invented Chinese characters or Cofucius was Korean. You will get "what the hell are you talking about?  " stare.
"They are even stating that a SNU professor may soon approach UNESCO to officially ask Kanji to become a World Treasure invented by Korea"
False. Zero ground. They love to bring up an SNU professor. You may think, hey it may have some relevent fact. Zero. Completely made-up by a Chinese reporter. I have seen some Korean claims that people who can be considered as Korean ancestors (they talk about Dongyi people) might have also contributed to the creation/development of Chinese characters but saying "Koreans claim Koreans made Chinese characters!" is an outright exaggeration/distortion.
"The Koreans have also successfully argues to UNESCO that the "Tanngo" Holiday of May 5th is a Korean tradition"
True. Koreans celebrate the same day (May 5th) with the same name but the content is totally different from what Chinese do. If they still celebrate such a day in an organized way, they can register their own holiday all they want. Why do they have to be pissed off?
"After the Tanngo Holiday, Korea will supposedly next try to make Chinese Medicine be called Korean Medicine"
False. There was just this 400 year-old Korean medicine book called 동의보감 to be registered as a World Record Heritage. That's it.
"South Korea is already in the process of approaching UNESCO with statements that Confucian Philosophy is a Korean invention."
False. Zero ground.
As for the Sea of Japan/East Sea issue mentioned at the end of the video, it may not be a very practical or crucial matter but there�s no right for Japan to say it's a "strange" claim. Naming of that sea wasn't by a fair process for a fact.
The Korean claims, eh? This is getting pretty old. I�ve been directly "teaching" some Chinese what�s utter false or exaggerated/distorted by their media (even their reporter officially admitted it but was rather accused of being a traitor by many Chinese netizens. Once this Chinese professor at Fudan university also tried to clarify this misunderstanding and blamed the irresponsible Chinese media) and made them all nod eventually. I can dig all the sources again upon request. Just don�t wanna bother otherwise. I spent too much time on arguing with misinformed Chinese (or Chinese-Americans). Once some unknown random loser's 3 hour of photoshop work was suddenly known as an official Korean textbook material or insisted by an SNU history professor by a random Chinese blogger and lots of Chinese netizens quickly bought into it. This kind of things happened repeatedly and now it seems you get anti-Korean sentiments from Chinese netizens in a knee-jerk manner. I guess some just love to be offended and hate.
| junkmail wrote: |
| Funny, I've met lots of Japanese around the world often married to local nationals in countries such as Kenya. They can't be that racist. |
You�ve personally met some Japanese married to African locals so Japanese can�t be racist. Nice logic. While many people here may only know about Korea�s case, in 2005, a UN report expressed concerns about �deep and profound� racism in Japan and insufficient government recognition of the problem.
Hmm�
Yeah, there sure are some boastful Koreans but don�t let that impression make you believe just about anything stupid talked about Koreans in the air without doubt. I guess some na�ve insular westerners who already got an axe to grind against Koreans can be only so quick to take everything against Koreans in a heartbeat. Sorry, no cure then. For the rest, stay enlightened.
Last edited by doggyji on Wed Jan 09, 2008 2:51 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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doggyji
Joined: 21 Feb 2006
Location: Toronto - Hamilton - Vineland - St. Catherines
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| Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 2:48 pm Post subject: |
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endo
Joined: 14 Mar 2004
Location: Seoul...my home
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| Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 6:25 pm Post subject: |
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I think most of the foreigners experieces with Japan on this forum stem from their brief vacations to the country.
And Japan is awesome!
But I think if many of us lived there we would see a different side. Japan is celebrated on this board because many lien it to the hot chick they see in the bar.
But most don't wake up with this dime piece the next morning.
Anyways, doggyji, why do you think Koreans have such a bad reputation amongst some other Asianas, even those living in North America? |
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laogaiguk
Joined: 06 Dec 2005
Location: somewhere in Korea
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| Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 8:00 pm Post subject: |
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| I've lived in Japan, Korea and China. The Japanese are much more racist than the Koreans, but are much nicer and treat "guests" like guests. Most people are happier in Japan, but if you were to decide to settle down there, I think it would actually be easier to settle down in Korea. The Japanese are much more refined, and hence you don't see as much of the bad stuff. Personally, the Chinese are the friendliest and by far the most open and respectful in actual thought (not the feigned Japanese one). Still, I would live in Japan of all three if I had the choice. Make of that what you will. |
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spamghod
Joined: 26 Dec 2007
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| Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 10:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Koreans do tend to be full of shit about their history and place in the world. Modern South Korea has greatly overachieved standing on the shoulders of the USA. If not for the USA, South Korea would be................North Korea! |
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doggyji
Joined: 21 Feb 2006
Location: Toronto - Hamilton - Vineland - St. Catherines
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| Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2008 2:14 am Post subject: |
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| endo wrote: |
I think most of the foreigners experieces with Japan on this forum stem from their brief vacations to the country.
And Japan is awesome!
But I think if many of us lived there we would see a different side. Japan is celebrated on this board because many lien it to the hot chick they see in the bar.
But most don't wake up with this dime piece the next morning. |
Japan has many cool factors for sure. Also, from what I gather, Korean guys tend to like Japanese girls, too. When my Korean friends' girlfriends were not Korean, they were almost always Japanese.
| endo wrote: |
| Anyways, doggyji, why do you think Koreans have such a bad reputation amongst some other Asianas, even those living in North America? |
Koreans have such a bad reputation among Asian-North Americans? Would you mind telling me how you came up with this idea in the first place? It seems you have a little bit warped image from reading all these internet message boards. Too much Dave's or some armchair critics' blogs who gather up all the negative news 24/7? (Just in this sinlge silly thread, look at how many things I could correct and clarify in one post. Can you see that if it weren't for me, misunderstandings would remain unchallenged and you would keep going around saying "I still got love for Koreans!" in a patronizing way about "non-issues"? Not that it wasn't cute. ) It's quite the opposite in my personal experience. Being a Korean has only been a plus (initially to break the ice) with other Asian friends on a personal level. Many times, they were pretty familiar with Korean pop music, dramas, tv shows, movies, etc, and were curious about Korean stuff. It's always not me who bring up that kinda stuff in the first place. Well, you've heard about Korean Wave after all... Of course, lots of guys here may be so quick to dismiss the popularity of Korean pop culture in Asia or among Asians. I personally don't really highly think of Korean pop culture. I'm just telling you what's going on as it is. I'm just telling you what the third party (non-Koreans) says. Lately, Forbes.com reported:
| Quote: |
20 Trends Sweeping The Globe
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For the more sedentarily inclined, it's easier than ever to sit back and appreciate global musical trends. Korean pop music has made waves across Asia for years, with homegrown stars selling out shows from Kyoto to Kuala Lumpur. But the scene, rife with over-produced starlets and goody-two-shoes boy bands, has been a little saccharine for Western tastes. That's changing, with indie bands finally catching a break and hip-hoppers like Eun Ji Won toying with Latin fusion for a truly original sound. K-pop star and actor Rain will make his Hollywood debut this year with a role in Speed Racer, directed by Andy and Larry Wachowski, creators of The Matrix.......
http://www.forbes.com/2008/01/09/internet-culture-global-forbeslife-globalpop08-cx_ee_0109pop.html |
If you search for "Korean Wave" on Google, you get bunch of articles like these:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/08/30/AR2006083002985.html
http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/01/02/news/korea.php
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5300970
Koreans have such a bad reputation among some other Asians? If some Chinese and Japanese don't like Koreans so much, it's a moot point. In each of those three countries, I guess the other two peoples are not really highly regarded by some. Just for fun,
Koreans say: jangke (Chinese), jokbari (Japanese)
Chinese say: gaoli bangzi (Korean), xiaoriben guizi (Japanese)
Japanese say: chon (Korean), sina (Japanese).
Between Koreans and the Japanese, well, I don't think I need to go over there. Between Koreans and the Chinese, there's something interesting. There are so many things I can talk about but just keep in mind that some Chinese news media have fanned anti-Koreanism, even making up non-exisitng issues. For example, as for the "Koreans are claiming the Chinese characters!" nonsense, 新快报 even had an article where the reporter outrightly cooked up a non-existing professor at SNU, "Park Jungsoo". Later, another Chinese newspaper 環球時報 reported it's not true though. There has been a series of this type of BS going on. I think this piece briefly sums up the situation well enough. (in Korean)
http://blog.naver.com/sunonthetree?Redirect=Log&logNo=110026143702
And then, they may have the "Ugly Korean" problem. Insensitive rude tourists for example. However, ask yourself if you aren't just singling out Koreans. The thing is that you are just too familiar with Koreans. As for the Phillipines, again, you may be only familiar with "Korean invasion". Korea bad, Japan good, maybe. Let's see how the real world looks like.
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,904216-2,00.html
Then, you have the term sinophobia.
Calling the sky and sea all just blue is too easy. Differentiating their real colours with subtlety is the real task, endo. I'm not trying to say you don't have a point in general. You could just be better informed. Also, I'm especially talking to you as I gave up on most of the others here. I spent all this time posting these silly stuff while I'm busy because I know it will make posters like you think twice.
Last edited by doggyji on Fri Jan 11, 2008 2:39 am; edited 2 times in total |
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endo
Joined: 14 Mar 2004
Location: Seoul...my home
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| Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2008 2:37 am Post subject: |
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First of all I seriously wasn't trying to be patronizing.
For all the things that get on my nerves about Korea and life here, I still really love it here. It's that love/hate (well not hate but annoyance) thing remeber?
Anyways, you're probably right on limiting my perceptions gained on the internet.
Damn technology, I'm going for a walk in the snow.
Peace |
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doggyji
Joined: 21 Feb 2006
Location: Toronto - Hamilton - Vineland - St. Catherines
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| Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2008 2:41 am Post subject: |
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Snowy, eh? It's way too warm here. I need to get back to working on my presentation slides.  |
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junkmail
Joined: 08 Jan 2005
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| Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2008 7:36 am Post subject: |
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| doggyji wrote: |
| junkmail wrote: |
| Funny, I've met lots of Japanese around the world often married to local nationals in countries such as Kenya. They can't be that racist. |
You�ve personally met some Japanese married to African locals so Japanese can�t be racist. Nice logic. While many people here may only know about Korea�s case, in 2005, a UN report expressed concerns about �deep and profound� racism in Japan and insufficient government recognition of the problem.
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Oh well if the toothless wolf made a report about it that's definitive then
However you're right about the fact I was generalizing based on personal experience, then I was responding to a pretty blind attack on the Japanese from another poster.
Again from personal experience because I can't find a UN report to back this up; I rarely hear the Japanese mention Koreans (South) yet Korean kids are taught anti-Japanese hatred in elementary school.
As far as culture goes, ok not all but the Koreans usually don't credit the Japanese with their contributions for example: Sashimi becomes hweh, Judo/Yudo, Kendo/Kumdo, Shoju/Soju. I could go on a lot longer but you get the picture.
The funny thing is I've had Koreans agree with me about most of this stuff. Actually I think Japan is the most culturally alike place to Korea I can think of and vice-versa, which is what makes this whole rivalry all the more absurd. |
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idonojacs
Joined: 07 Jun 2007
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| Posted: Sat Jan 12, 2008 1:13 am Post subject: |
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| From the FWIW department, I was watching an episode of MASH, season 4 episode 22 ICYI, and two nurses who had just arrived were looking at a guide book to Korea. It said that Korean women wear long dresses that touch the ground, with short jackets that expose the breasts. This is, of course, set around 1952. |
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cunning_stunt
Joined: 16 Dec 2007
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| Posted: Sat Jan 12, 2008 1:25 am Post subject: |
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| Koreans know fully well they are pretty much a non entity on the international stage . They have huge chips on their shoulders about their place in the world . I don't see the need to rub their face in it . Let them have their "history" . |
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idonojacs
Joined: 07 Jun 2007
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| Posted: Sat Jan 12, 2008 1:48 am Post subject: |
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cunning_stunt:
| Quote: |
| Koreans know fully well they are pretty much a non entity on the international stage . They have huge chips on their shoulders about their place in the world . I don't see the need to rub their face in it . Let them have their "history" . |
Perhaps. But it does seem a little sad when a 1970s American TV sitcom provides a more accurate version of Korean history than Korean schools. |
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cunning_stunt
Joined: 16 Dec 2007
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| Posted: Sat Jan 12, 2008 2:08 am Post subject: |
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For distorted histories try Thailand . I had a hard time convincing my ex girlfriend that... no , a Thai king did not defeat an entire army singlehandidly whilst riding on top of a white elephant .
I'll admit with that one the attraction was slighly biased towards the physical rather than intellectual .
For another example try South Africa . It seems some people think before white people came everyone was holding hands and singing kumbiya inbetween making quaint and witty quips about quantum theory . |
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cunning_stunt
Joined: 16 Dec 2007
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| Posted: Sat Jan 12, 2008 2:18 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| If not for the USA, South Korea would be................North Korea! |
Nah . It would just be "the south OF Korea " . |
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