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jkelly80
Joined: 13 Jun 2007
Location: you boys like mexico?
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 Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 8:49 pm Post subject: |
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| stevemcgarrett wrote: |
BB asked of jkelly80:
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| Umm what's your point there JKelly? |
No point, just a pointy head.
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Withering. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 9:08 pm Post subject: |
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| jkelly80 wrote: |
| Same old, same old... |
Thanks, BB.
So, Jill Kelly: do you not even keep up with current events? And who said I was speaking of the Saudis? Now that you bring them up, however, I seem to recall their and even Syria's voicing at least some reservations about Iranian intentions in the Middle East. |
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jkelly80
Joined: 13 Jun 2007
Location: you boys like mexico?
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| Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 9:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
| jkelly80 wrote: |
| Same old, same old... |
Thanks, BB.
So, Jill Kelly: do you not even keep up with current events? And who said I was speaking of the Saudis...? |
So, the UAE has an ambivalent attitude about the US? I guess I'm completely clueless.
Jill? So I'm a girl? Or is that supposed to be an insult? Being female? I guess that makes you another meat-head leatherneck misogynist? |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 9:12 pm Post subject: |
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No, not an insult. Just dissapointed to learn that I am not speaking with Jill Kelly.
And recognizing that you are completely clueless about Middle-Eastern affairs and the complex and complicated American role there is certainly a good start. Glad I could assist. Cheers. |
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jkelly80
Joined: 13 Jun 2007
Location: you boys like mexico?
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| Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 9:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
No, not an insult. Just dissapointed to learn that I am not speaking with Jill Kelly.
And recognizing that you are completely clueless about Middle-Eastern affairs and the complex and complicated American role there is certainly a good start. Glad I could assist. Cheers. |
Nice attempt to backpedal, but I think you're full of it. Although you do your damndest to cultivate a persona of genteel machismo, it comes off as more than a little affected.
The Saudis are the largest state in the Gulf, not the only state. Should I have indicated that I was aware that other states exist in the region as well? Would that have indicated a sufficient grasp of the the complex and complicated role of the US in the Gulf? |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 9:46 pm Post subject: |
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Moron.
I spoke of "Iran's neighbors [in the plural] and America's somewhat [this qualifier indicates ambiguous allies] allies [in the plural, again]" and you can do little more than rant about Saudi Arabia.
I do not care how big Saudi Arabia is, or how big it looms in your worldview. It had little to do with the point I made, above, Jillian. And, yes, you should have indicated that you understood I was speaking of multiple Gulf govts in responding so aggressively to my post.
For future reference, if you choose to respond to my post, that is your right. But at least pay me the courtesy of addressing my post. That will be all for now.
Last edited by Gopher on Sun Jan 13, 2008 9:48 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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jkelly80
Joined: 13 Jun 2007
Location: you boys like mexico?
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| Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 9:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
Moron.
I spoke of "Iran's neighbors [in the plural] and America's somewhat [this qualifier indicates ambiguous allies] allies [in the plural, again]" and you can do little more than rant about Saudi Arabia.
I do not care how big Saudi Arabia is, or how big it looms in your worldview. It had little to do with the point I made, above, Jillian.  |
Saudi Arabia was one example, not meant to indicate the totality of the power politics in the region. You're quite a clever kid though. |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 11:35 pm Post subject: |
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| jkelly80 wrote: |
| The Sunni gulf states use our military as a counterweight against the Shia Persians, but that doesn't mean that our military presence in the region is somehow legitimized by the fact that states that we prop up request our presence near their borders. If the Mexicans invited the Chinese to keep a fleet at anchor at Mexicali, I don't think anyone would accuse us of being provocative if we butted heads with Chinese from time to time. |
I bet North Korea doesn't like US forces being in South Korea.
But I how about this? Iran changes their behavior and then they won't have a problem with the US. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 11:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| but that doesn't mean that our military presence in the region is somehow legitimized by the fact that states that we prop up request our presence near their borders. |
Our ships also stop at French ports. Does that mean we also prop up the French government? |
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jkelly80
Joined: 13 Jun 2007
Location: you boys like mexico?
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| Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 6:49 am Post subject: |
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| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
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| but that doesn't mean that our military presence in the region is somehow legitimized by the fact that states that we prop up request our presence near their borders. |
Our ships also stop at French ports. Does that mean we also prop up the French government? |
No. Why would it? |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 2:52 pm Post subject: |
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| So, do we prop up any governments in the Middle East? And if yes, which ones, and how do we prop them up? |
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stevemcgarrett
Joined: 24 Mar 2006
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| Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 3:09 pm Post subject: |
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jkelly80 persisted:
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| The Sunni gulf states use our military as a counterweight against the Shia Persians, but that doesn't mean that our military presence in the region is somehow legitimized by the fact that states that we prop up request our presence near their borders |
The Saudi royal family's relationship with Washington is more complicated than that, and more involved. Perhaps you've forgotten that the majority of the 9-11 terrorists were Saudis, and need I remind you of al-Qaeda? Part of our purpose in being there is to bolster Saudi internal stability, although we do not interfere with their security apparatus. And they provide forward bases for us, which in turn enables us to provide logistical support to our forces in the region. And let's also not forget the very real economic interest of oil, which no one in the West wants to have held hostage to Iran or any other rogue state. Do you think Saddam would have quietly withdrawn his occupation forces had we not intervened on behalf of the Kuwaitis? Surely you're not that naive. So we're hardly being duped or used, which you're response seems to imply.
And what states are we propping up? The Lebanese can do fine without us if only the Iranians would stop trying to undermine them via Hezbollah. The Jordanians broker their own accords and are often called upon for same by other Arab states. The Egyptians at least have a semblance of democratic rule; the alternative would be another radical theocracy under the auspices of such unsavory fellows as bin Laden's lieutenants. Even Libya's strongman Khadafi is finally seeing the light of day as his country becomes more economic prosperous (three decades ago it was one of the poorest in Africa). The Gulf States are quite capable of flourishing without undue assistance from the West and although they're hardly enlightened politically there is movement in that direction. At least they and the Saudis provide university educational opportunities for women now.
Progress comes slowly. Maybe when you to take off your bib and stop being so willful you'll be able to realize that. |
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igotthisguitar
Joined: 08 Apr 2003
Location: South Korea (Permanent Vacation)
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| Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 4:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
| Moron ... at least pay me the courtesy of addressing my post. That will be all for now. |
Answer my question Gopher.
Damn! How will those poor neo-nazi cons ever get WW7 now?
BOMBS AWAY !!!
Gulf "Prankster" Possible Message Source
CAIRO, Egypt - A threatening radio message at the end of a video showing Iranian patrol boats swarming near U.S. warships in the Persian Gulf may have come from a "prankster" rather than from the Iranian vessels, the Navy Times newspaper has reported.
A video and audio of the Jan. 6 incident in the Strait of Hormuz featured a man in accented English saying "I am coming to you. ... You will explode after ... minutes."
The Filipino Monkey hypotheses (MORE)
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080114/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iran_us_navy
;_ylt=AjJCWEdU.403MyIa5FuzFkUDW7oF
Last edited by igotthisguitar on Mon Jan 14, 2008 5:04 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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jkelly80
Joined: 13 Jun 2007
Location: you boys like mexico?
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| Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 4:58 pm Post subject: |
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| stevemcgarrett wrote: |
jkelly80 persisted:
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| The Sunni gulf states use our military as a counterweight against the Shia Persians, but that doesn't mean that our military presence in the region is somehow legitimized by the fact that states that we prop up request our presence near their borders |
The Saudi royal family's relationship with Washington is more complicated than that, and more involved. Perhaps you've forgotten that the majority of the 9-11 terrorists were Saudis, and need I remind you of al-Qaeda?
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What exactly does that mean? That the Saudis have a crap load of internal problems, and their bargain with the Wahabists is proving to be not so great? How does that contradict what I posted?
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Part of our purpose in being there is to bolster Saudi internal stability, although we do not interfere with their security apparatus. And they provide forward bases for us, which in turn enables us to provide logistical support to our forces in the region.
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You say bolster internal stability, I say prop up. I agree, I think it's the best option we have, but it's still a prop job nonetheless. Don't forget about Kuwait, another prop job.
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And let's also not forget the very real economic interest of oil, which no one in the West wants to have held hostage to Iran or any other rogue state. Do you think Saddam would have quietly withdrawn his occupation forces had we not intervened on behalf of the Kuwaitis? Surely you're not that naive. So we're hardly being duped or used, which you're response seems to imply.
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I was not implying either of those. I'm sure the US knows what they're doing, but we're still there at the behest of incredibly unpopular (in both senses of the word) governments. Whether or not this propping is best option available to us (and I believe it is) is irrelevant to what I said.
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And what states are we propping up? The Lebanese can do fine without us if only the Iranians would stop trying to undermine them via Hezbollah. The Jordanians broker their own accords and are often called upon for same by other Arab states. The Egyptians at least have a semblance of democratic rule; the alternative would be another radical theocracy under the auspices of such unsavory fellows as bin Laden's lieutenants. Even Libya's strongman Khadafi is finally seeing the light of day as his country becomes more economic prosperous (three decades ago it was one of the poorest in Africa). The Gulf States are quite capable of flourishing without undue assistance from the West and although they're hardly enlightened politically there is movement in that direction. At least they and the Saudis provide university educational opportunities for women now.
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Egypt, Lebanon, Jordan, and (good lord) Libya are not gulf states. They certainly are concerned about Iran (especially the first three) but they are not gulf states.
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Progress comes slowly. Maybe when you to take off your bib and stop being so willful you'll be able to realize that. |
Once again, foreign policy as an extension of virility. You are the man , with the devloped testes, and I (and anyone else who points out the ethical ramifications of US foreign policy) am the child, with my high, quavering voice and piteous Adam's arsenal. "If only these peaceniks were as realistic as us real men, they'd come around. Maybe once their ball$ drop."
Same old, s a m e o l d. Give me a break. You sound like a broken record. |
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stevemcgarrett
Joined: 24 Mar 2006
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| Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 7:11 pm Post subject: |
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jkelly80:
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You say bolster internal stability, I say prop up. I agree, I think it's the best option we have, but it's still a prop job nonetheless. Don't forget about Kuwait, another prop job...
I'm sure the US knows what they're doing.... |
Good grief, man, get a grip. Now I know what the number in your username stands for: your CE IQ. Gopher is right: it's a waste of time talking to you. You need a primer in MidEast diplomacy so you can stop whining about the travails of "propping up" this or that state. Besides, I don't see how Kuwait qualifies as a puppet state regardless.
If we know what we're doing, then why worry about anyway?
As for this:
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| Once again, foreign policy as an extension of virility. You are the man , with the devloped testes, and I (and anyone else who points out the ethical ramifications of US foreign policy) am the child, with my high, quavering voice and piteous Adam's arsenal. "If only these peaceniks were as realistic as us real men, they'd come around. Maybe once their ball$ drop." |
Normally I wouldn't recommend this course of action, but in your case I think some Freudian psychotherapy is in order.  |
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