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catman
Joined: 18 Jul 2004
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 Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 6:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
Indeed.
I am aware that my point requires people to engage complex and unpredictable chains-of-events in place of the usual simplistic, antiAmerican, U.S.-centric, allegation-driven nonsense. I am also aware that most on this board will violently resist doing so. Far easier to uncritically conform to the unofficial, antiEstablishment official line and continue congratulating yourself for original thinking.
C'est la vie. I have stated my objection and shown the horse where the water lies... |
So you would be the establishment-apologist line? |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 9:17 pm Post subject: |
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No, not at all.
And why is it that I must restate a thousand times that we have more options in analysis of American foreign relations than either America's flag-waving apologist or the Great Satan's unrelenting, sneering prosecutor?
Stupid simpletons. Angry stupid simpletons at that -- which are far worse and more difficult to exchange views with, apparently. And hypocritical, angry stupid simpletons -- as most of you ranted and railed to no end against W. Bush's "your-either-with-us-or-against-us" dichotomy...
Some of us neither hate America nor sing "God Bless America" in our showers every morning, little kitty. There are other positions to take, idiot. Grow up and deal with it.
Better yet: here is a line of string and some catnip. Run along. |
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catman
Joined: 18 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 10:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
And why is it that I must restate a thousand times that we have more options in analysis of American foreign relations than either America's flag-waving apologist or the Great Satan's unrelenting, sneering prosecutor?
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The flag wavers are not apologists, they're outright supporters. The apologists tend to say that "mistaked were made" and "yeah there were many attrocities but........". They still support US foreign policy in Latin America during the Cold War. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 1:54 am Post subject: |
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Catman: I have already established that you do not know a thing about Cold-War-era Latin-American and Caribbean affairs. You only know the U.S.-centric, allegation-driven, antiAmerican/Yanquiphobic discourse. And that, at the end of the day, remains very little, I am afraid. Yes, yes, yes. Anyone who deviates from this must be "a supporter" or "an apologist" -- and, as you say, ultimately they are no different, because "they still support American foreign policy."
Honest, clear-thinking, morally-superior people like you talk about American murderers and support of other puppet-murderers; indeed, the entire history of Latin America is little more than the history of what active America did to passive Latin America, etc., etc., etc.
Whatever. As I said. Simpleton.
Come back for the last word. I am finished here. |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 2:02 am Post subject: |
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Most of the bad guys the US supported during the cold war were no worse than those trying to overthrow them .The cold war was justified and self defense.
he Soviet Union and its allies were out to get the US.
Catman the US allied itself with a dictator in Korea. Was it wrong? Look at the competition up north? |
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catman
Joined: 18 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 8:25 am Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
| Catman: I have already established that you do not know a thing about Cold-War-era Latin-American and Caribbean affairs. You only know the U.S.-centric, allegation-driven, antiAmerican/Yanquiphobic discourse. And that, at the end of the day, remains very little, I am afraid. Yes, yes, yes. Anyone who deviates from this must be "a supporter" or "an apologist" -- and, as you say, ultimately they are no different, because "they still support American foreign policy." |
...and I was labeled an anti-American for decrying US foreign policy in Latin America.
| Quote: |
Honest, clear-thinking, morally-superior people like you talk about American murderers and support of other puppet-murderers; indeed, the entire history of Latin America is little more than the history of what active America did to passive Latin America, etc., etc., etc.
Whatever. As I said. Simpleton.
Come back for the last word. I am finished here. |
So you have NO interest in actually discussing US policy in Latin America during the Cold War? To actually point out where he was wrong when he said:
"It was a time in the 70s when the worst imaginable horrors were going on in Latin America -- Argentina, Brazil, Chile, Uruguay, Paraguay, Guatemala, El Salvador -- they were military dictatorships with death squads, all with the backing of the CIA and the U.S. government," |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 8:34 am Post subject: |
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| catman wrote: |
| NO interest in actually discussing US policy in Latin America during the Cold War...? |
I have discussed it in detail on this forum, citing specific evidence and declassified documents -- more than once. Apparently no one was listening. I have grown tired of it.
Enjoy your ignorance, your world of good guys and bad. As they say, "ignorance is bliss." If you wish to cultivate it further, I would suggest going to this website, where you will find all the ammunition you need to make your case to those sympathetic to your worldview. You will find Agee there. You will approve of the National Security Archives' slant as well. Or read William Blum, Noam Chomsky, or Bruce Cumings if you are in the mood to peruse manuscripts.
Whatever it is that you do, I cannot help you see things differently. You are far too stubbornly committed to the U.S.-centric discourse and worldview. In any case, good luck. |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 9:20 am Post subject: |
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thirdworldtraveler. Nice. A totally stupid site. A couple times my friends and I have gone to the hippie hotels in the city to hang in the bars there for shi.ts and giggles. Cheapest beer in the city. I'm sure more than a few of the dudes we meet are regular posters on that site. Why won't they shower? Why do they refer to "doing" a country in a week?
Gopher. Ok. I like to goat you sometimes. But typically I do appreciate most of your commentary. But you do seem to ignore some of the more negative elements of American history, right? A little? I get that you look at the wider context, but there have been some bad things. Right? |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 9:24 am Post subject: |
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| thepeel wrote: |
| ...there have been some bad things. Right? |
I have never suggested otherwise, all those who have repeatedly strawmanned me into their absurdly simplistic dichotomies notwithstanding.
The American govt has done a thousand good things and a thousand bad in Latin America and the Caribbean. I merely take issue with those who obssess on the bad and refuse to even consider the possibility that the good exist -- indeed, they remain incapbable of seeing these good things (look at Orwells' "Flory," again, on this thread's preceding page). They have been programmed to see it this way by angry leftist academics and journalists. In short, to answer your question, I do not see the American govt as either a good guy or a bad guy, but rather both and neither one at the same time.
I think heroes and villains are for children. As adults, we need to move beyond this artificiality.
Some might come back, indignantly, and demand "What good things! Name one!" I really hope someone does. Because then I can rest my case... |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 9:33 am Post subject: |
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| Fair enough. I have about zero knowledge about American policy in Latin America. Honestly, I know about as much as I care. But sometimes you seem to be taking an overly patriotic line and that might turn people off of your otherwise valid positions. I know, I know. Stones, glass houses and such. Just sayin. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 9:33 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Some might come back, indignantly, and demand "What good things! Name one!" I really hope someone does. Because then I can rest my case... |
What good things! Name one! |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 11:31 am Post subject: |
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| thepeel wrote: |
| ...sometimes you seem to be taking an overly patriotic line and that might turn people off of your otherwise valid positions. |
But is that because I expressly communicate this line or because many posters remain overly-eager to read that into whatever I might say -- especially when I criticize their excessively harsh line with respect to American foreign policy?
In any case, my position remains and is this: the American govt has always pursued its interests abroad: the Open Door and the cultivation of pro-American, liberal democracies; or, when push comes to shove, pro-American, liberal govts of other types, including harsh, military dictatorships. That is the beginning and the end of it. Many confuse the issue by packaging this as universally good (as it was, briefly, during the Second World War), or universally bad (as it never was) and, in many cases, and this changes in any context, it usually is good and/or bad for at least some people here or there, whereever it may be. But that is beside the point.
However this may be, in pursuing these interests, and in dealing with those who threaten its interests -- such as Russia's Holy Alliance, the Soviet Union, Castro's Cuba, not to mention diverse local actors -- the American govt has taken an activist approach, sometimes based on good information, but just as often based on bad. This has resulted in policies and specific interventions that have benefitted some and harmed others in Latin America and the Caribbean over time.
Should the American govt change its policies (to what exactly, its critics never specify), this would still not assuage antiAmericanism in the western hemisphere. For although some of it originates from American policies, some of it originates simply from the fact that the United States is wealthy and powerful and many envy and fear this, irrationally. (Take the common Brazilian trope that the American govt stands poised to seize and annex the Amazon; or the Chileans' belief that American businessman Douglas Tompkins plans to divide Chile in half so that those in the south will never be allowed to see their families in the north.)
And a focus on American foreign policy, interestig and insightful as it may be, still fails to account for the decisive influences on country A, B, or C and its history: local conditions and actors and their interests and methods. That remains my issue with the kitty-kat man and that remains my issue with writers-on-a-mission like Agee...
And, yes, On the Other Hand, I take your point and will be quiet now... 
Last edited by Gopher on Mon Jan 14, 2008 1:29 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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jkelly80
Joined: 13 Jun 2007
Location: you boys like mexico?
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| Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 12:05 pm Post subject: |
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| "It was a time in the 70s when the worst imaginable horrors were going on in Latin America -- Argentina, Brazil, Chile, Uruguay, Paraguay, Guatemala, El Salvador -- they were military dictatorships with death squads, all with the backing of the CIA and the U.S. government," |
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