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loose_ends
Joined: 23 Jul 2007
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 Posted: Mon Dec 24, 2007 4:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
| Sleepy in Seoul wrote: |
| What gives the FBI the right to...? |
People ask such questions when they are in the weakest of positions and wish to oppose something they cannot change one iota.
And by the way, planning and supporting terrorist acts against Americans and American interests from abroad are basic human rights violations, too. We are at war. We task and retask our intelligence agencies -- sometimes as often as technological developments occur. Deal with it. |
Hey Gopher.
Do you really believe this?
If you weren't at war, would you still freely invite such identification measures?
Or, would you be a little more of a sceptic? |
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Sleepy in Seoul
Joined: 15 May 2004
Location: Going in ever decreasing circles until I eventually disappear up my own fundament - in NZ
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| Posted: Tue Dec 25, 2007 4:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
For the record, I don't like it. But personal information is everywhere. That's the price of the information age. You like the convenience of shopping online? Guess what, those credit cards have all your info on them. I line up with Ya-Ta on this one, as so often happens.
| Sleepy in Seoul wrote: |
| it is a country which has shown no regard for due process |
Wait, are you talking about the US? Look, I'll admit the CIA does some shady *beep*, but you're saying the US, in general, has no regard for due process.
Do you care to retract that claim, or shall I expose your utter ignorance? I got nothing else to do today. Anyone else who wants to take up his position, feel free. |
'Due process' is defined as
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| due process of law - (law) the administration of justice according to established rules and principles; based on the principle that a person cannot be deprived of life or liberty or property without appropriate legal procedures and safeguards |
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/due+process+of+law
I should have indicated that I was referring to the U.S. government not the American people as a whole. As the U.S. locks more people up in prison than any other country in the world (as of 2003 at any rate) and is the most litigous country in the world, in many ways American people are more aware of due process than people from any other country; overly so, arguably. But when it suits them, the U.S. government cares nothing for due process. Where is the protection of life and/or liberty for the people incarcerated, without trial, access to lawyers or the evidence against them, at Guantanamo and other U.S. prisons? How many of these people has the U.S. tortured, how many murdered?
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| The U.S. government has acknowledged 28 confirmed or suspected homicides of detainees in U.S. custody. |
http://www.humanrightsfirst.org/us_law/etn/statements/abu-yr-042605.htm
The U.S. government has just recently, as I pointed out in an earlier post, declared that it can kidnap people from independant countries, even countries with which the U.S. has extradition treaties and take them back to the U.S. for trial. Where is the respect for the due process for international law? When I talk about 'due process', I of course mean due process for all, not just for Americans. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Tue Dec 25, 2007 7:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Sleepy in Seoul wrote: |
| As the U.S. locks more people up in prison than any other country in the world (as of 2003 at any rate) and is the most litigous country in the world, in many ways American people are more aware of due process than people from any other country; overly so, arguably. |
Yes, a few weeks ago we were reading a case about a plane crash in Scotland. The plaintiff's lawyers wanted to sue the manufacturers in the US, because tort awards are more liberal here. The judge transfered the case to Scotland via Forum non Conveniens.
The litigousness of America is necessary given its liberty. Business is given great latitude in America, as many Commonwealth Leftists like to remind us on this board. What is not mentioned is the strong counter-balance that tort lawyers may provide. American corporations have to step carefully in order to avoid liability. This keeps American products safe and equalizes the balance of power between the corporation and the consumer. America's Civil Law System may very well be the best in the world.
| SiS wrote: |
But when it suits them, the U.S. government cares nothing for due process. Where is the protection of life and/or liberty for the people incarcerated, without trial, access to lawyers or the evidence against them, at Guantanamo and other U.S. prisons? How many of these people has the U.S. tortured, how many murdered?
| Quote: |
| The U.S. government has acknowledged 28 confirmed or suspected homicides of detainees in U.S. custody. |
http://www.humanrightsfirst.org/us_law/etn/statements/abu-yr-042605.htm
The U.S. government has just recently, as I pointed out in an earlier post, declared that it can kidnap people from independant countries, even countries with which the U.S. has extradition treaties and take them back to the U.S. for trial. Where is the respect for the due process for international law? When I talk about 'due process', I of course mean due process for all, not just for Americans. |
Well, its a long process, but basically the Judiciary of the US is fighting with the Executive AND the Legislative Branches. After the Hamdan and Padilla cases, the Supreme Court (SCOTUS) forced Congress to come up with some sort of guidelines. Congress did in October 2006, a mere month before power passed from a GOP majority into the hands of a Democratic majority.
The Congress passed the Military Commissions Act of 2006, in a compromise. Part of the compromise with the Executive reinstated the military codes that had been relaxed, the relaxation of which lead directly to Abu Ghraib. In exchange, the Gang of 14 (14 GOP moderates, including McCain) allowed passage of the Act and establishment of military tribunals. These tribunals ostensibly oversee presentation of evidence. It doesn't exactly work that way in practice, however.
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| What hasn't changed in all these six years is that not one detainee has been convicted at a trial before the military tribunals that operate at Guantanamo. The administration still asserts, as it always has, that the detainees are treated "humanely," and yet the evidence of torture and abuse at Guantanamo has become unequivocal. The administration also still claims that the detainees at Guantanamo have rights�great heaping armloads of unprecedented rights. Except, six years later, it's clear (PDF) that the legal proceedings set up at Gitmo in the wake of Rasul, the so-called Combatant Status Review Tribunals (PDF), mostly give prisoners the "right" to be tried by a judge who answers to the military; the "right" to be tried with evidence obtained by torture; the "right" to be presumed a terrorist from the outset; the "right" to be tried without a lawyer present; and the "right" to be tried with evidence that's sloppy, inaccurate, and classified. |
The problem is that the Military Tribunals are horrible. SCOTUS is now reviewing whether the legislation passed is Constitutional. Its not quite Due Process right now, but the situation is rather unique. And in a way, the prisoners are getting their day in court...over whether they get a day in court. Hopefully, SCOTUS will strike down the Military Commissions Act.
But I object to your phrasing. The Judicial branch is part of the US government, and they have given the Executive a run for its money. Given that many of the prisoners probably are terrorists, and the Judiciary does not pass legislation, the Judicial decisions have not been exactly toothless. But Bush's time to set the agenda is running out. Should the Judiciary find the current arrangement unsatisfactory, it falls on a Democratic majority in Congress to re-write the legislation. And I'm quite certain that Bush will have to make much steeper compromises then.
1 more year... |
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Sleepy in Seoul
Joined: 15 May 2004
Location: Going in ever decreasing circles until I eventually disappear up my own fundament - in NZ
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| Posted: Tue Dec 25, 2007 11:25 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for that Kuros, but it seems that the U.S. judiciary is fighting against a lot of the U.S. government. Is it able to stop many of the erosions of personal rights before they happen? Or is it only able to block some of the excesses, and only after years of trying?
Given the behaviour of the U.S. government in the last few years, I believe that everyone everywhere in the world should be very worried about how the U.S. administration can and do use and abuse the powers they have given themselves. To think that the U.S. government is now saying that they have the right to go into any country in the world and kidnap anyone, even citizens of other countries, then (given their past actions) hold them for years with no access to a lawyer, court or evidence is just a little worrying. They say it is to catch 'terrorists', but having witnessed the U.S. administrations proclivity towards twisting the definitions of words and outright use of lies, how soon will it be before they start using these powers on anyone for any perceived offence? |
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Harpeau
Joined: 01 Feb 2003
Location: Coquitlam, BC
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| Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2007 4:11 am Post subject: |
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| Thanks for posting the OP. I'm just wondering why Bush hasn't been impeached yet for his many lies and stupidity?! He did worse acts than Clinton ever did. What's with that?! |
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igotthisguitar
Joined: 08 Apr 2003
Location: South Korea (Permanent Vacation)
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igotthisguitar
Joined: 08 Apr 2003
Location: South Korea (Permanent Vacation)
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| Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 6:22 pm Post subject: |
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Military Industrial Complex
Biometric Surveillance Control Grid Revealing Itself
"Server in the Sky" global biometric database casually announced
Steve Watson
Infowars.net
Tuesday, Jan 15, 2008
A vast intelligence program is to establish a global biometric database known as "Server in the Sky" that will collate and provide an " International Information Consortium" with access to the biometric measurements and personal information of citizens of the US, UK, Australia, Canada and New Zealand in the name of fighting the "war on terror".
As reported by the London Guardian, he plan is being formulated by the FBI with the cooperation of the home offices and law enforcement agencies of American allies.
Biometric measurements, irises or palm prints as well as fingerprints, and other personal information are likely to be exchanged across the network.
The FBI told the Guardian: "Server in the Sky is an FBI initiative designed to foster the advanced search and exchange of biometric information on a global scale. While it is currently in the concept and design stages, once complete it will provide a technical forum for member nations to submit biometric search requests to other nations. It will maintain a core holding of the world's 'worst of the worst' individuals. Any identifications of these people will be sent as a priority message to the requesting nation."
MORE ...
http://infowars.net/articles/january2008/150108Grid.htm |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 1:32 am Post subject: |
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| Sleepy in Seoul wrote: |
Thanks for that Kuros, but it seems that the U.S. judiciary is fighting against a lot of the U.S. government. Is it able to stop many of the erosions of personal rights before they happen? Or is it only able to block some of the excesses, and only after years of trying?
Given the behaviour of the U.S. government in the last few years, I believe that everyone everywhere in the world should be very worried about how the U.S. administration can and do use and abuse the powers they have given themselves. To think that the U.S. government is now saying that they have the right to go into any country in the world and kidnap anyone, even citizens of other countries, then (given their past actions) hold them for years with no access to a lawyer, court or evidence is just a little worrying. They say it is to catch 'terrorists', but having witnessed the U.S. administrations proclivity towards twisting the definitions of words and outright use of lies, how soon will it be before they start using these powers on anyone for any perceived offence? |
As I mentioned the US is one of the most free and tolerant nations in the world especially considering the US is at war.
More than that the US justice system wasn't up to dealing with Al Qaeda.
This is not only an issue of civil rights it is also an issue involving national security. |
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