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GoldMember
Joined: 24 Oct 2006
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 Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 6:17 pm Post subject: Don't Teach Kids! You could go to Prison!! |
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Yea I know this sounds alarming, but hot off the press is this:
http://news.naver.com/main/read.nhn?mode=LSD&mid=sec&sid1=102&oid=001&aid=0001896471
A 37 New Zealander in Busan has been arrested for supposedly molesting a Child.
I'm not one for defending Child Molesters, and I believe in innocence until proven guilty, but consider this:
It's VERY easy to make a false accusation in Korea against a foreigner. With the Uri Nara Mentality, Koreans will lie in order to protect one of there own.
If they lie and are found out to be lieing, there is no penalty for perjury, therefore there is only up side no downside.
There is no disincentive to wrongfull prosecution. Would a person who is innocent be able to sue for damages? Forget it, Korean Judges don't entertain he notion of pecuniary damages. Even if you had damages awarded, chances are you can't collect.
Police can hold you in prison I believe for up to 30 days with no charge. Forget about Habeus Corpus.
You might have to spend 20 mill or more on legal fees defending yourself.
Prosecutors here have been known to want to put a foreigner in prison merely because doing so is for Korea's honor. Nothing to do with guilt or innocence.
Be VERY careful out there. |
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Paul_Zerzan
Joined: 26 Sep 2007
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| Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 6:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Teaching kindergarten is no job for a grown man anyway. |
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Yu_Bum_suk
Joined: 25 Dec 2004
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| Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 6:43 pm Post subject: |
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| It all depends on your relationship with your school. If they really don't like you, that's one of many things they could try. If your school, coworkers, and students like you, you face far less risk of false accusations than you would in the west. |
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R. S. Refugee
Joined: 29 Sep 2004
Location: Shangra La, ROK
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| Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 7:09 pm Post subject: Re: Don't Teach Kids! You could go to Prison!! |
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| GoldMember wrote: |
Yea I know this sounds alarming, but hot off the press is this:
http://news.naver.com/main/read.nhn?mode=LSD&mid=sec&sid1=102&oid=001&aid=0001896471
A 37 New Zealander in Busan has been arrested for supposedly molesting a Child.
I'm not one for defending Child Molesters, and I believe in innocence until proven guilty, but consider this:
It's VERY easy to make a false accusation in Korea against a foreigner. With the Uri Nara Mentality, Koreans will lie in order to protect one of there own.
If they lie and are found out to be lieing, there is no penalty for perjury, therefore there is only up side no downside.
There is no disincentive to wrongfull prosecution. Would a person who is innocent be able to sue for damages? Forget it, Korean Judges don't entertain he notion of pecuniary damages. Even if you had damages awarded, chances are you can't collect.
Police can hold you in prison I believe for up to 30 days with no charge. Forget about Habeus Corpus.
You might have to spend 20 mill or more on legal fees defending yourself.
Prosecutors here have been known to want to put a foreigner in prison merely because doing so is for Korea's honor. Nothing to do with guilt or innocence.
Be VERY careful out there. |
A great deal of what this OP is saying is true. I watched a good friend go through 2 years of hell. He was accused on a minor crime by a Korean nutball professor who had just returned from a frustrating and very unsuccessful 2-year stint hanging out at a well-known religious uni in Utah. Apparently, she believed that she had been racially discriminated against at this uni. She also wasn't a member of this particular religion which probably didn't help any.
She had only been back a month when my buddy went to a private college down south that was owned by her family to work at a summer camp. I was down there at this camp too and was a witness to the incident in question, so I knew she was just making up stories to stroke her own sick, arrogant ego.
She told him and another teacher there that she wanted revenge on "white" people for the racial discrimination she believed she experienced in Utah. She told them that she couldn't take revenge against the alleged racists in Utah because she had no power there, but that now that she was back in Korea where she had power and prestige she would take her revenge against the first "white" people she could. Her quote was, "You no racial discrminate me. ME RACIAL DISCRMINATE YOU!!!" And then she filed phony charges against him and the Canadian teacher.
With only the flimsiest (easily disprovable) evidence, the prosecutors in this little town ran him around for 2 years through 3 courts - lower court, appeals court, and the Supreme Court. He won in every court. Even so, it cost him considerable time, money, and peace of mind, as all of us who had to listen to his troubles for the 2 years know all to well.
[NOTE TO FOREIGNERS: They have double jeopardy (well, triple jeopardy, actually) in Korea meaning that even after you're found NOT GUILTY, the prosecutor can go and complain about the judge at the first trial not getting it right, and have another go at you. That is, he can appeal your acquittal. They say acquittals are so rare in this country that the prosecutor will lose face if he loses a trial, so he will do almost anything to avoid that even when he knows you're not guilty.]
Anyway, he luckily got honest judges who refused to rule against him when there was no credible evidence at all. The judge even shouted at a flunky from the college who was sent into court to commit perjury. Apparently, he got irritated listening to such obvious lies.
Anyway, he avoided getting a phony criminal record which may be pretty handy given the new E-2 rules. Now, he's trying to get financial compensation from this college and its perjuring flunky in lieu of filing criminal charges against them. Too optimistic, I'd say.
He did manage to avoid being arrested or ever spending a night in jail during this Kafkaesque experience.
Last edited by R. S. Refugee on Wed Jan 16, 2008 7:29 pm; edited 4 times in total |
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spliff
Joined: 19 Jan 2004
Location: Khon Kaen, Thailand
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| Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 7:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Yu_Bum_suk wrote: |
| It all depends on your relationship with your school. If they really don't like you, that's one of many things they could try. If your school, coworkers, and students like you, you face far less risk of false accusations than you would in the west. |
 Wow...just...WOW! |
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GoldMember
Joined: 24 Oct 2006
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| Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 7:29 pm Post subject: |
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Some people here just don't get it.
"Oh my student's love me, nothing will ever happen to me"
How ignorant can you be.
Consider this (not in Korea) the parents of children taught by a British Teacher, dobbed her in because of a Teddy Bear, knowing full well it could be a death sentence for her.
Though not a severe as some African countries, Korea does not have rule of law!
In the example wriiten by Refuge, where the Judge was annoyed by the perjurer. Consider this the Judge was annoyed, well how about laying charges against the perjurer. No it's not going to happen. This is what I mean ZERO downside, if some Koreans decide they want to get you.
Even if you win your court case. Your life is hell, and NOTHING happens to your accusers.
Call me paranoid, but I'd call this a high risk situation. As the foreigner your the one bearing all the risk and all the downside.
All it takes is ONE pissed off mother, and your in deep poo. |
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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 7:32 pm Post subject: Re: Don't Teach Kids! You could go to Prison!! |
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| R. S. Refugee wrote: |
| GoldMember wrote: |
Yea I know this sounds alarming, but hot off the press is this:
http://news.naver.com/main/read.nhn?mode=LSD&mid=sec&sid1=102&oid=001&aid=0001896471
A 37 New Zealander in Busan has been arrested for supposedly molesting a Child.
I'm not one for defending Child Molesters, and I believe in innocence until proven guilty, but consider this:
It's VERY easy to make a false accusation in Korea against a foreigner. With the Uri Nara Mentality, Koreans will lie in order to protect one of there own.
If they lie and are found out to be lieing, there is no penalty for perjury, therefore there is only up side no downside.
There is no disincentive to wrongfull prosecution. Would a person who is innocent be able to sue for damages? Forget it, Korean Judges don't entertain he notion of pecuniary damages. Even if you had damages awarded, chances are you can't collect.
Police can hold you in prison I believe for up to 30 days with no charge. Forget about Habeus Corpus.
You might have to spend 20 mill or more on legal fees defending yourself.
Prosecutors here have been known to want to put a foreigner in prison merely because doing so is for Korea's honor. Nothing to do with guilt or innocence.
Be VERY careful out there. |
A great deal of what this OP is saying is true. I watched a good friend go through 2 years of hell. He was accused on a minor crime by a Korean nutball professor who had just returned from a frustrating and very unsuccessful 2-year stint hanging out at a well-known religious uni in Utah. Apparently, she believed that she had been racially discriminated against at this uni. She also wasn't a member of this particular religion which probably didn't help any.
She had only been back a month when my buddy went to a private college down south that was owned by her family to work at a summer camp. I was down there at this camp too and was a witness to the incident in question, so I knew she was just making up stories to stroke her own sick, arrogant ego.
She told him and another teacher there that she wanted revenge on "white" people for the racial discrimination she believed she experienced in Utah. She told them that she couldn't take revenge against the alleged racists in Utah because she had no power there, but that now that she was back in Korea where she had power and prestige she would take her revenge against the first "white" people she could. Her quote was, "You no racial discrminate me. ME RACIAL DISCRMINATE YOU!!!" And then she filed phony charges against him and the Canadian teacher.
With only the flimsiest (easily disprovable) evidence, the prosecutors in this little town ran him around for 2 years through 3 courts - lower court, appeals court, and the Supreme Court. He won in every court. Even so, it cost him considerable time, money, and peace of mind, as all of us who had to listen to his troubles for the 2 years know all to well.
[NOTE TO FOREIGNERS: They have double jeopardy (well, triple jeopardy, actually) in Korea meaning that even after you're found NOT GUILTY, the prosecutor can go and complain about the judge at the first trial not getting it right, and have another go at you. That is, he can appeal your acquittal. They say acquittals are so rare in this country that the prosecutor will lose face if he loses a trial, so he will do almost anything to avoid that even when he knows you're not guilty.]
Anyway, he luckily got honest judges who refused to rule against him when there was no credible evidence at all. The judge even shouted at a flunky from the college who was sent into court to commit perjury. Apparently, he got irritated listening to such obvious lies.
Anyway, he avoided getting a phony criminal record which may be pretty handy given the new E-2 rules. Now, he's trying to get financial compensation from this college and its perjuring flunky in lieu of filing criminal charges against them. Too optimistic, I'd say.
He did manage to avoid being arrested or ever spending a night in jail during this Kafkaesque experience. |
Wow, thanks for sharing this.
Any more details for gossip mongers like myself?  |
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R. S. Refugee
Joined: 29 Sep 2004
Location: Shangra La, ROK
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| Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 7:43 pm Post subject: Re: Don't Teach Kids! You could go to Prison!! |
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| Captain Corea wrote: |
| R. S. Refugee wrote: |
| GoldMember wrote: |
Yea I know this sounds alarming, but hot off the press is this:
http://news.naver.com/main/read.nhn?mode=LSD&mid=sec&sid1=102&oid=001&aid=0001896471
A 37 New Zealander in Busan has been arrested for supposedly molesting a Child.
I'm not one for defending Child Molesters, and I believe in innocence until proven guilty, but consider this:
It's VERY easy to make a false accusation in Korea against a foreigner. With the Uri Nara Mentality, Koreans will lie in order to protect one of there own.
If they lie and are found out to be lieing, there is no penalty for perjury, therefore there is only up side no downside.
There is no disincentive to wrongfull prosecution. Would a person who is innocent be able to sue for damages? Forget it, Korean Judges don't entertain he notion of pecuniary damages. Even if you had damages awarded, chances are you can't collect.
Police can hold you in prison I believe for up to 30 days with no charge. Forget about Habeus Corpus.
You might have to spend 20 mill or more on legal fees defending yourself.
Prosecutors here have been known to want to put a foreigner in prison merely because doing so is for Korea's honor. Nothing to do with guilt or innocence.
Be VERY careful out there. |
A great deal of what this OP is saying is true. I watched a good friend go through 2 years of hell. He was accused on a minor crime by a Korean nutball professor who had just returned from a frustrating and very unsuccessful 2-year stint hanging out at a well-known religious uni in Utah. Apparently, she believed that she had been racially discriminated against at this uni. She also wasn't a member of this particular religion which probably didn't help any.
She had only been back a month when my buddy went to a private college down south that was owned by her family to work at a summer camp. I was down there at this camp too and was a witness to the incident in question, so I knew she was just making up stories to stroke her own sick, arrogant ego.
She told him and another teacher there that she wanted revenge on "white" people for the racial discrimination she believed she experienced in Utah. She told them that she couldn't take revenge against the alleged racists in Utah because she had no power there, but that now that she was back in Korea where she had power and prestige she would take her revenge against the first "white" people she could. Her quote was, "You no racial discrminate me. ME RACIAL DISCRMINATE YOU!!!" And then she filed phony charges against him and the Canadian teacher.
With only the flimsiest (easily disprovable) evidence, the prosecutors in this little town ran him around for 2 years through 3 courts - lower court, appeals court, and the Supreme Court. He won in every court. Even so, it cost him considerable time, money, and peace of mind, as all of us who had to listen to his troubles for the 2 years know all to well.
[NOTE TO FOREIGNERS: They have double jeopardy (well, triple jeopardy, actually) in Korea meaning that even after you're found NOT GUILTY, the prosecutor can go and complain about the judge at the first trial not getting it right, and have another go at you. That is, he can appeal your acquittal. They say acquittals are so rare in this country that the prosecutor will lose face if he loses a trial, so he will do almost anything to avoid that even when he knows you're not guilty.]
Anyway, he luckily got honest judges who refused to rule against him when there was no credible evidence at all. The judge even shouted at a flunky from the college who was sent into court to commit perjury. Apparently, he got irritated listening to such obvious lies.
Anyway, he avoided getting a phony criminal record which may be pretty handy given the new E-2 rules. Now, he's trying to get financial compensation from this college and its perjuring flunky in lieu of filing criminal charges against them. Too optimistic, I'd say.
He did manage to avoid being arrested or ever spending a night in jail during this Kafkaesque experience. |
Wow, thanks for sharing this.
Any more details for gossip mongers like myself? |
Well, one thing you should know is that details could be actionable under Korean law. Even if you can prove that they are true, a Korean whose "honor has been offended" can sue you. More expense, more hassle. So, it is definitely risky naming names in Korea. Personally, like the OP, I tend to err on the side of caution.
Come to think of it, here's another interesting detail that identifies no one. When he went to his first trial, the sicko prof who had been subpoeanad (I can never spell that word right) didn't show up. She had fled the country rather than have to go to court and commit additional perjury, I guess. (Why commit crimes yourself when there's some poor flunky who can be forced to do it for you?) The flunky explained her absence by claiming that the uni in Utah where she had suffered so had hired her for a 2-year stint to do something, and she had to leave in the month preceding the trial. Duh.
Last edited by R. S. Refugee on Wed Jan 16, 2008 8:02 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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GoldMember
Joined: 24 Oct 2006
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| Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 7:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
[NOTE TO FOREIGNERS: They have double jeopardy (well, triple jeopardy, actually) in Korea meaning that even after you're found NOT GUILTY, the prosecutor can go and complain about the judge at the first trial not getting it right, and have another go at you. That is, he can appeal your acquittal. They say acquittals are so rare in this country that the prosecutor will lose face if he loses a trial, so he will do almost anything to avoid that even when he knows you're not guilty.]
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The United Nations a few years ago did a report on the Korean Criminal Justice (Injustice) system and found that only 4% of trials result in aquittals.
This means either
1. The police here are REALLY good at their job (someone here please post that they really believe this) or
2. Jugdes here are basically similar to their counterparts in North Korea, and merely rubber stamp what the police want.
But then again the kids and their parents like me so I'm ok! |
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ceesgetdegrees
Joined: 12 Jul 2007
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| Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 8:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Paul_Zerzan wrote: |
| Teaching kindergarten is no job for a grown man anyway. |
Rubbish, it's a job for anyone, regardless of gender who is capable and is up to the challenge. Are you 70 years old or something? |
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sargx
Joined: 29 Nov 2007
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| Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 8:44 pm Post subject: |
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| I'd strongly recommend all foreigner teachers get some police in their corner. I've been slowly building up my "police and government connections" so I can avoid a future problem. Foreigner will never win against a Korean. The foreigner's high-status Korean friends will. |
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Paul_Zerzan
Joined: 26 Sep 2007
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| Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 8:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Seem to have struck a nerve. Do you teach kindergarten? |
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R. S. Refugee
Joined: 29 Sep 2004
Location: Shangra La, ROK
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| Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 8:50 pm Post subject: |
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| sargx wrote: |
| I'd strongly recommend all foreigner teachers get some police in their corner. I've been slowly building up my "police and government connections" so I can avoid a future problem. Foreigner will never win against a Korean. The foreigner's high-status Korean friends will. |
I think this is excellent advice. How have you managed to build up your "police and government connections?" Personally, I would like to learn from your experiences.
In my friend's case, it wasn't an option for him since he'd only been in Korea a month when the incident happened. |
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Roch
Joined: 24 Apr 2003
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 8:50 pm Post subject: |
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| ceesgetdegrees wrote: |
| Paul_Zerzan wrote: |
| Teaching kindergarten is no job for a grown man anyway. |
Rubbish, it's a job for anyone, regardless of gender who is capable and is up to the challenge. Are you 70 years old or something? |
Agreed. |
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Bibbitybop
Joined: 22 Feb 2006
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 9:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Roch wrote: |
| ceesgetdegrees wrote: |
| Paul_Zerzan wrote: |
| Teaching kindergarten is no job for a grown man anyway. |
Rubbish, it's a job for anyone, regardless of gender who is capable and is up to the challenge. Are you 70 years old or something? |
Agreed. |
Agreed here, too. I don't teach kindergarten, but assuming that grown men shouldn't teach it is absurd and sexist. |
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