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| Which presidential candidate would most likely fix the U.S. economy? |
| Hillary Clinton |
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20% |
[ 6 ] |
| Barack Obama |
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10% |
[ 3 ] |
| John Edwards |
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0% |
[ 0 ] |
| Mitt Romney |
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13% |
[ 4 ] |
| Ron Paul |
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44% |
[ 13 ] |
| John McCain |
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0% |
[ 0 ] |
| Mike Huckabee |
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6% |
[ 2 ] |
| Rudy Giuliani |
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0% |
[ 0 ] |
| Dennis Kucinich |
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3% |
[ 1 ] |
| Fred Thompson |
|
0% |
[ 0 ] |
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| Total Votes : 29 |
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| Author |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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 Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 5:48 am Post subject: |
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| There isn't that much to fix. The economy is fairly well regulated. The big problem is the way monetary policy has been run. |
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wannago
Joined: 16 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 6:13 am Post subject: |
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| blaseblasphemener wrote: |
| Where's FDR when you need him? |
Good god, what is people's obsession with FDR? That guy damaged the U.S. more than W could even think of doing. Talk aobut creating an out-of-control government bureaucracy.
Blame W for the current economic woes all you want, but the truth is that it probably would have happened anyway. |
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caniff
Joined: 03 Feb 2004
Location: All over the map
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| Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 6:18 am Post subject: |
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| wannago wrote: |
| Blame W for the current economic woes all you want, but the truth is that it probably would have happened anyway. |
He's an idiot, we all (hopefully) agree, but this wasn't his baby. This has been coming down the pike for quite some time. |
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 8:24 am Post subject: |
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| huffdaddy wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Invalid Poll ID Home Page |
Once again, you're a fraud. |
Ya-ta was able to find it.
But they did change the link. It is fixed now.
Thanks for the heads up. |
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Czarjorge
Joined: 01 May 2007
Location: I now have the same moustache, and it is glorious.
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| Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 10:34 am Post subject: |
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| wannago wrote: |
| blaseblasphemener wrote: |
| Where's FDR when you need him? |
Good god, what is people's obsession with FDR? That guy damaged the U.S. more than W could even think of doing. Talk aobut creating an out-of-control government bureaucracy.
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Actually had FDR's reforms not been built upon the beauracracy wouldn't be that bloated. And the war had as much to do with building the beauracracy as the new deal.
Since the war every administration, and their accompanying beauracrats, have just heaped on the beauracracy. Beauracrats don't often eliminate that which provides them a job. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 2:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Good god, what is people's obsession with FDR? |
This is the way it was explained to me:
Unemployment was up around 30% and people were terrified. FDR came in and said we're going to try things, and if one plan doesn't work we'll try something else. This was the opposite of Hoover (and traditional thinking) who said to sell apples and pencils on street corners until things got better. In short, he gave people hope that something was going to be tried. By doing that, he headed off any truly extreme solutions, like the Germans fell for. FDR saved the country, almost as much as Lincoln did. Quibbling about his policies entirely misses the point.
In personal terms, one of my grandfathers was an engineer on the Rock Island Railroad and had been laid off. One of his brothers had also been laid off his job and brought his wife and kid to live with grandpa's family. Winter was coming and Uncle George (the kid) didn't have any shoes. The last 50 cents in the house went to buy him some shoes for the winter. Luckily, the next week the railroad called grandpa back to work.
My ex-in-laws grew up in the Oklahoma Panhandle and got married in '36. They went to California because the family farms had blown away. The orchards in California weren't hiring married couples when they got there, so they had to lie and say they weren't married and worked for two years on separate farms.
Anyone who doesn't understand FDR needs to take off their ideological glasses and just read 'The Grapes of Wrath': Ma Joad: "I never had my house pushed over before. Never had my family stuck out on the road. Never had to lose everything I had in life."
Hoover, Reagan and Bush II's 'No Billionaire Left Behind' policies just don't work. |
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Milwaukiedave
Joined: 02 Oct 2004
Location: Goseong
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| Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 4:05 pm Post subject: |
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| It's ok, because in November you'll have some great choices. Either Bush lite or Bush another 4 years. Don't worry, either way we're screwed. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 4:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Good god, what is people's obsession with FDR? |
This is the way it was explained to me:
Unemployment was up around 30% and people were terrified. FDR came in and said we're going to try things, and if one plan doesn't work we'll try something else. This was the opposite of Hoover (and traditional thinking) who said to sell apples and pencils on street corners until things got better. In short, he gave people hope that something was going to be tried. By doing that, he headed off any truly extreme solutions, like the Germans fell for. FDR saved the country, almost as much as Lincoln did. Quibbling about his policies entirely misses the point.
In personal terms, one of my grandfathers was an engineer on the Rock Island Railroad and had been laid off. One of his brothers had also been laid off his job and brought his wife and kid to live with grandpa's family. Winter was coming and Uncle George (the kid) didn't have any shoes. The last 50 cents in the house went to buy him some shoes for the winter. Luckily, the next week the railroad called grandpa back to work.
My ex-in-laws grew up in the Oklahoma Panhandle and got married in '36. They went to California because the family farms had blown away. The orchards in California weren't hiring married couples when they got there, so they had to lie and say they weren't married and worked for two years on separate farms.
Anyone who doesn't understand FDR needs to take off their ideological glasses and just read 'The Grapes of Wrath': Ma Joad: "I never had my house pushed over before. Never had my family stuck out on the road. Never had to lose everything I had in life."
Hoover, Reagan and Bush II's 'No Billionaire Left Behind' policies just don't work. |
That's the best FDR defense I've seen yet, because it flatly admits that he didn't know what he was doing economically, but he was brave for trying.
You've redeemed FDR's character for me a bit, Ya-Ta. But how to explain the court-packing? |
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caniff
Joined: 03 Feb 2004
Location: All over the map
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| Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 6:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Good god, what is people's obsession with FDR? |
This is the way it was explained to me:
Unemployment was up around 30% and people were terrified. FDR came in and said we're going to try things, and if one plan doesn't work we'll try something else. This was the opposite of Hoover (and traditional thinking) who said to sell apples and pencils on street corners until things got better. In short, he gave people hope that something was going to be tried. By doing that, he headed off any truly extreme solutions, like the Germans fell for. FDR saved the country, almost as much as Lincoln did. Quibbling about his policies entirely misses the point.
In personal terms, one of my grandfathers was an engineer on the Rock Island Railroad and had been laid off. One of his brothers had also been laid off his job and brought his wife and kid to live with grandpa's family. Winter was coming and Uncle George (the kid) didn't have any shoes. The last 50 cents in the house went to buy him some shoes for the winter. Luckily, the next week the railroad called grandpa back to work.
My ex-in-laws grew up in the Oklahoma Panhandle and got married in '36. They went to California because the family farms had blown away. The orchards in California weren't hiring married couples when they got there, so they had to lie and say they weren't married and worked for two years on separate farms.
Anyone who doesn't understand FDR needs to take off their ideological glasses and just read 'The Grapes of Wrath': Ma Joad: "I never had my house pushed over before. Never had my family stuck out on the road. Never had to lose everything I had in life."
Hoover, Reagan and Bush II's 'No Billionaire Left Behind' policies just don't work. |
Stories like that should put things in perspective for people (including myself) who complain about trivial matters. Many Americans of that generation had their character forged by those times.
It's too easy sometimes to not see the forest for the trees. |
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wannago
Joined: 16 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 7:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Good god, what is people's obsession with FDR? |
This is the way it was explained to me:
Unemployment was up around 30% and people were terrified. FDR came in and said we're going to try things, and if one plan doesn't work we'll try something else. This was the opposite of Hoover (and traditional thinking) who said to sell apples and pencils on street corners until things got better. In short, he gave people hope that something was going to be tried. By doing that, he headed off any truly extreme solutions, like the Germans fell for. FDR saved the country, almost as much as Lincoln did. Quibbling about his policies entirely misses the point.
In personal terms, one of my grandfathers was an engineer on the Rock Island Railroad and had been laid off. One of his brothers had also been laid off his job and brought his wife and kid to live with grandpa's family. Winter was coming and Uncle George (the kid) didn't have any shoes. The last 50 cents in the house went to buy him some shoes for the winter. Luckily, the next week the railroad called grandpa back to work.
My ex-in-laws grew up in the Oklahoma Panhandle and got married in '36. They went to California because the family farms had blown away. The orchards in California weren't hiring married couples when they got there, so they had to lie and say they weren't married and worked for two years on separate farms.
Anyone who doesn't understand FDR needs to take off their ideological glasses and just read 'The Grapes of Wrath': Ma Joad: "I never had my house pushed over before. Never had my family stuck out on the road. Never had to lose everything I had in life."
Hoover, Reagan and Bush II's 'No Billionaire Left Behind' policies just don't work. |
Yes, yes....we both have stories of relatives who lived through the Dirty 30s and the Depression. My grandparents were married in '32 and attempted to raise chickens on a small midwest farm. While not Oklahoma (and not fitting with "The Grapes of Wrath" as nicely as your story seemingly does) they did experience terrible dust storms and the loss of most of their chickens. However, they didn't move. They hung on and eventually came out the other side of the Depression and the nasty dust storms. My grandparents NEVER referred to FDR as anything close to be the savior of the nation. I think they respected him but their survival was due to their perseverance and hard work, not some federal government program. Sure, they were helped in small ways by the government, but nothing compared to their neighbors and family helping.
You are way overstating the case for FDR and "saving" the nation. And comparing him to Lincoln? Your HS history teachers should be ashamed. The closest FDR came to saving the nation was to insure that the U.S. became actively involved in WW2. I'm not saying FDR was stupid, but he knew that putting the country into the war would pave the way to economic recovery...and that's exactly what happened. One only has to read through the diplomatic acrobatics with Japan to understand that FDR WANTED entry into the war.
The only thing all of the programs FDR attempted did was to create an oversized federal government that laid the groundwork for the bloated monstrosity we see today. Creating a government agency to put men to work digging holes and filling them in again is hardly the work of a savior. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 7:20 pm Post subject: |
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As I said above, merely quibbling about the policies entirely misses the point, as you must to serve your ideology.
I will add this: FDR stands at one end of modern American politics and says, "Government has a role to play and can be helpful" and Reagan stands at the other end and says, "Government isn't the solution. It's the problem."
Americans are very good at saying they want government to be smaller and stay out of things, but as soon as any problem comes up, they holler for the politicians. I think it's time to get past the silliness of that and work harder at defining areas where government has a positive role to play. |
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wannago
Joined: 16 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 7:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
As I said above, merely quibbling about the policies entirely misses the point, as you must to serve your ideology.
I will add this: FDR stands at one end of modern American politics and says, "Government has a role to play and can be helpful" and Reagan stands at the other end and says, "Government isn't the solution. It's the problem."
Americans are very good at saying they want government to be smaller and stay out of things, but as soon as any problem comes up, they holler for the politicians. I think it's time to get past the silliness of that and work harder at defining areas where government has a positive role to play. |
Look, I don't know you other than to say I know you are older than me and I'm no spring chicken. What you say here are the words of a baby boomer...someone who has grown up with the mantra of "holler" for the government when times get tough. Our grandparents were not this way. It IS the point to talk about FDR and his policies because they changed forever the way people look at the federal government...now more of a nanny than the way it was designed.
The federal government does have a positive role to play...but I think its safe to say you and I would disagree what those roles are and to what extent they should be played. Although I think your characterization of Reagan is a bit extreme, I do find myself gravitating more toward government being part of the problem rather than the solution. |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 7:38 pm Post subject: |
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Uh, that is all romantic and fuzzy but the American government caused the great depression by restricting credit in the middle of a recession (also restricting trade, raising taxes and fixing prices...or, the exactly bang-on thing a state should do to meltdown the economy). So yeah, they caused the problems and the 'solution' then becomes more government. How convenient.
What colour are your ideological glasses? |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 7:52 pm Post subject: |
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Ya-Ta, the fact is that FDR had not improved unemployment by 1937.
| Quote: |
| Unemployment stood at 20% in 1937, five years into the New Deal |
Quite an acheivement given millions of dollars invested in social programs, especially when you consider that in 1930 unemployment stood at only 15%.
Remember the TVA? Well it squashed private enterprise.
| Quote: |
| The final line in the traditional story is that Roosevelt's government offices were somehow better than their private sector counterparts--when it came to utilities, for example, we learned that only the federal government could electrify backward rural areas. This is a false memory, for there was a company that already planned to light up the South, Commonwealth and Southern. David Lilienthal of the Tennessee Valley Authority set out to gut it, and succeeded. But the battle over electric power was also, literally, a power struggle between coequals, not a contest between a good policeman and a sinning company. |
You won't see any replication of FDR's policies, Ya-Ta. State-run monopolies are not favored by the Democrats coming up. |
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2008 1:01 am Post subject: |
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| wannago wrote: |
| You are way overstating the case for FDR and "saving" the nation. And comparing him to Lincoln? Your HS history teachers should be ashamed. The closest FDR came to saving the nation was to insure that the U.S. became actively involved in WW2. I'm not saying FDR was stupid, but he knew that putting the country into the war would pave the way to economic recovery...and that's exactly what happened. One only has to read through the diplomatic acrobatics with Japan to understand that FDR WANTED entry into the war. |
| Kuros wrote: |
Ya-Ta, the fact is that FDR had not improved unemployment by 1937.
| Quote: |
| Unemployment stood at 20% in 1937, five years into the New Deal |
Quite an acheivement given millions of dollars invested in social programs, especially when you consider that in 1930 unemployment stood at only 15%. |
That period at during the late '30's was an even worse time than during the so-called "great depression" of 1929-30.
Gearing up for war "saved" the economy, and we have essentially been on a war economy ever since. There have been few periods since then when we have not been actively engaged in some war, conflict, police action, etc., symptomatic of a capitalist system in terminal decay, addicted to permanent war in search of ever-increasing profits.
A large majority of the population have now turned against the war in Iraq. THAT is why we are getting ready to go into Iran next. We have already been prepared for another 50-100 years of the "war on terrorism." Are you prepared to accept that, or is it time for some radical changes? |
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