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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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 Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 4:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Republicans will eat her alive in November. |
I don't think this is exactly true. She's been in the limelight for three presidential terms now, ever since '92. Everything negative has been said about her that can be said, and she's still standing. People have had time to digest the negatives and still vote for her. All the Republicans can do is recycle old stories and rumors. I think most people will say, "Ho hum. I've heard that before. If you don't have anything new, shut up."
Obama on the other hand, has not been through it to anything like the same degree. In fact, perverse as it sounds, anything negative about him needs to come out now, give people a chance to see how he handles it and give them time to get over it. The Clintons will do him a favor in the long run by bringing up whatever can be brought up--the Republicans will be far harsher.
AND we don't know how women voters are going to react to hard-ball politics aimed at the first legitimate female candidate. After all, welling up with tears in New Hampshire did not get the 'end of campaign' result many thought it would get.
Last edited by Ya-ta Boy on Sat Jan 19, 2008 4:25 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 4:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Milwaukiedave wrote: |
| Maybe because some believe we can be above that... |
There are no new lows or downward spirals. This is what it is, this is what is has always been, and this is what it will remain for the foreseeable future. I can cite examples in multiple historical places and contexts.
One problem with Idealism is that, when confronted with reality, all its contradictions, inconsistencies, hypocrisies, corruption, dirty tricks, and lies of all types, it tends to reference for comparison Utopian-like conditions that never existed anywhere or anytime. Then, when the present comes up lacking in such a comparison, Idealists typically conclude that we are spiraling out of control into the abyss, etc.
No. These remain merely human affairs. This is what we are and this is how we behave.
And, by the way, we all have things in our background and personal history that any opponent could and would use against us unfairly -- especially in America's current heated contest where, behind each individual politician, various powerful and complex political forces are clashing over which course we ought to take from here and who should sit in the Oval Office. It is a no-holds-barred fight. No more no less.
In many places and times -- including many places in today's world -- such fights are actual fights, involving civil wars and assassinations. At least our system has conquered that part of it.
Do not bewail the injustice of it, then. Stop sentimentalizing. If you and your side are strong, fight for yourselves and make your own justice. The Clintons do (but for Hillary Clinton's pathetic "vast right-wing conspiracy" complaint of the late-1990s). And this is one of several reasons I respect them.
Last edited by Gopher on Sat Jan 19, 2008 4:33 pm; edited 4 times in total |
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Czarjorge
Joined: 01 May 2007
Location: I now have the same moustache, and it is glorious.
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| Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 4:26 pm Post subject: |
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I'm surprised no one has noted that Billy Boy is claiming that he and Chelsea "witnessed" voter intimidation by the Culinary Workers Union. I'm really losing respect for the Clintons. If this keeps up and she's the nominee I may not be able to vote for her. This reminds me of the way Bush's campaign dealt with McCain in 2000, only Clinton is Bush and McCain is Obama.
The odd thing is that Obama may have ended up with 13 delegates to Clinton's 12 as Nevada has a screwy way of divvying up delegates. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 4:27 pm Post subject: |
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| we all have things in our background and personal history that any opponent could and would use against us |
Care to share?
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 4:29 pm Post subject: |
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No. Do you?  |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 4:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Czarjorge wrote: |
| I'm surprised no one has noted that Billy Boy is claiming that he and Chelsea "witnessed" voter intimidation by the Culinary Workers Union. I'm really losing respect for the Clintons. |
Plouffe is claiming the same shit.
If you want moral purity, vote Kucinich. |
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Milwaukiedave
Joined: 02 Oct 2004
Location: Goseong
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| Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 4:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Czarjorge wrote: |
| The odd thing is that Obama may have ended up with 13 delegates to Clinton's 12 as Nevada has a screwy way of divvying up delegates. |
The problem is perception, whether or not he won a delegate more or not. Yes, I think many people would agree the way the delegates are assigned are screwy. The MSM is going to be writing Obama's obituary Feb 6th, even if he wins as many states as HC. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 4:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Certainly it is clear that either Clinton is winning and Obama is pressing her, or vice versa. It is an exciting, stressful race -- and I believe it will not be settled until next month. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 4:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
| Certainly it is clear that either Clinton is winning and Obama is pressing her, or vice versa. It is an exciting, stressful race -- and I believe it will not be settled until next month. |
I predict it goes longer, well past Super Tuesday.
Unmentioned is Edwards complete inability to pick up a single delegate. This changes a lot if this becomes a trend. Edwards is losing his king-maker status in what will likely be a close race. |
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Czarjorge
Joined: 01 May 2007
Location: I now have the same moustache, and it is glorious.
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| Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 5:02 pm Post subject: |
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It will really come down to how many delegates he has after UberTuesday. And if his number of delegates is less than Hillsy's number of superdelegates, assuming she can hold on to them all.
I'm really hoping the Dems are smart enough to downplay the superdelegate business. I won't be the only one disenfranchised by that political chicanery. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 5:06 pm Post subject: |
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I think Nevada put the crisp on Edwards' goose.
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I predict it goes longer, well past Super Tuesday.
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I don't think so. I think South Carolina will give the answer for the Democrats. If Clinton can pull a respectable number of black voters (and I think she will), I think she'll sweep Florida and Super Tuesday. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 5:41 pm Post subject: |
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Epiphany 
I had an epiphany while peeling potatoes. Hey! If Archimedes could have one in a bathtub...
I was thinking about the OP robocall and got to thinking: It doesn't sound like something from the Clinton's camp, although we are supposed to think it is.
The transcript is playing the Politics of Fear card, as well as other things, but primarily the politics of fear. Who in our recent history has a reputation for that? Hmmm?
Moreover, who would benefit the most from a rancorous intra-Democratic Party dispute?
This is a black operation from someone in the Republican Party, official or not. It positively reeks of the Republicans. |
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chronicpride
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 6:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Republicans will eat her alive in November. |
I don't think this is exactly true. She's been in the limelight for three presidential terms now, ever since '92. Everything negative has been said about her that can be said, and she's still standing. People have had time to digest the negatives and still vote for her. All the Republicans can do is recycle old stories and rumors. I think most people will say, "Ho hum. I've heard that before. If you don't have anything new, shut up."
Obama on the other hand, has not been through it to anything like the same degree. In fact, perverse as it sounds, anything negative about him needs to come out now, give people a chance to see how he handles it and give them time to get over it. The Clintons will do him a favor in the long run by bringing up whatever can be brought up--the Republicans will be far harsher.
AND we don't know how women voters are going to react to hard-ball politics aimed at the first legitimate female candidate. After all, welling up with tears in New Hampshire did not get the 'end of campaign' result many thought it would get. |
I agree. As much as I prefer a candidate that will be less polarizing, like Obama, Hillary has already been fully vetted in the past. And the Clintons have no limits or moral/ethical compass about winning. They do whatever it takes. And they have a lot of friends in the right places that will help with that. As much as they get pegged for being ruthless, as we're seeing in this campaign (especially in Nevada), this ruthlessness will help get her into office against a Republican candidate. As long as her negatives don't overtake her. If more dirt comes to light over what the Clintons are really doing to win the primaries, this will all be new fresh fodder for the Republicans to draw attention to in Nov. |
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Milwaukiedave
Joined: 02 Oct 2004
Location: Goseong
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| Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 7:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Czarjorge wrote: |
| I'm really hoping the Dems are smart enough to downplay the superdelegate business. I won't be the only one disenfranchised by that political chicanery. |
I think you underestimate the "party elite". Like I said, all Clinton has to do is mearly win as many delegates (or more) as Obama on Feb 5th and it's over. A tie will be good enough. |
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Milwaukiedave
Joined: 02 Oct 2004
Location: Goseong
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| Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 7:37 pm Post subject: |
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| chronicpride wrote: |
| I agree. As much as I prefer a candidate that will be less polarizing, like Obama, Hillary has already been fully vetted in the past. And the Clintons have no limits or moral/ethical compass about winning. They do whatever it takes. And they have a lot of friends in the right places that will help with that. As much as they get pegged for being ruthless, as we're seeing in this campaign (especially in Nevada), this ruthlessness will help get her into office against a Republican candidate. As long as her negatives don't overtake her. If more dirt comes to light over what the Clintons are really doing to win the primaries, this will all be new fresh fodder for the Republicans to draw attention to in Nov. |
CP,
You've got a point. Even if there is no connection to what is being done in the primary, Clinton hurts herself and the party in the GE. It's too bad others can see it that way and condone her actions.
This election is about more then just the presidency. Every single US Represenative is up for re-election, as well as 1/3 of the US Senators and quite a few govenors. People fail to realize that the longer the person's coattails at the top of the ticket, the better chance everyone else has. So much for not burning bridges. |
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