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Rteacher
Joined: 23 May 2005
Location: Western MA, USA
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 Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2008 10:50 pm Post subject: |
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You may have a problem with "infinite regression", but God doesn't...
A materialistic/negative conception of God is a false premise...
It's certainly no more rational to posit that some matter has always existed ... |
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seoulunitarian
Joined: 06 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2008 11:07 pm Post subject: re: |
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| Rteacher wrote: |
You may have a problem with "infinite regression", but God doesn't...
A materialistic/negative conception of God is a false premise...
It's certainly no more rational to posit that some matter has always existed ... |
Your first sentence is nonsensical.
Your second sentence begs the question.
Your third sentence makes out as if I'm claiming something I have never claimed.
Peace |
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Rteacher
Joined: 23 May 2005
Location: Western MA, USA
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| Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2008 11:15 pm Post subject: |
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My first assertion is nonsensical only from a materialistic conception. The higher reality is spiritual senses.
The positive premise is that God is the original cause of all causes who has always existed.
Materialists at some point have to either posit that matter has always existed or that it has materialized out of absolutely nothing.
It's more rational to posit that an infinite, unlimited sentient being has always existed and is the source of everything ... |
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Justin Hale
Joined: 24 Nov 2007
Location: the Straight Talk Express
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| Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2008 11:20 pm Post subject: |
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I've no problem with infinite regress. The Earth goes on forever. Try walking to the edge of the Earth and you'll see what I mean - you'll just walk around circling the globe constantly. Try going to the end of the universe. There isn't one. Stephen Hawking said the universe is boundless but finite and I imagine it is so in the same way the Earth is boundless but finite.
Anyway, we encounter infinite regresses all the time in nature and philosophy. When you're at the hairdressors and there's a mirror behind you and a mirror in front of you and you see a reflection of a reflection of yourself, it continues forever at speed of light. It just keeps on going and going and going until you leave your seat, pay up and leave.
See also:
1. X exists
2. "X exists" is true
3. "X exists is true" is true
4. "X exists is true is true" is true
5. "X exists is true is true is true" is true
See? Infinite regress. We know they exist so let's prepare for the possibility that the origin of the universe is as neverending as the 3 or 4 examples of infinity I describe above! |
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Rteacher
Joined: 23 May 2005
Location: Western MA, USA
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| Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 12:02 am Post subject: |
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But such an origin would still be either physical or nonphysical.
It makes more sense to me that physical laws emanate from an infinitely intelligent absolute person not subject to physical laws (rather than from some unintelligent matter or absolutely nothing...) |
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itaewonguy
Joined: 25 Mar 2003
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| Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 4:05 am Post subject: Re: re: |
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| the_beaver wrote: |
I don't like any religion that I've seen and feel the Buddhism is as silly as Judaism which are both as silly as Christianity.
I have nothing against the practitioners of these different beliefs except when they bother me on the street. |
That�s because your mind hasn�t evolved enough to understand it...
You say its silly and that�s a normal thing to say... when a human WHO doesn�t know something and has a closed mind or a mind which is not fully evolved or open he will say THATS STUPID! Just because you don�t understand it or don�t want to doesn�t mean it�s stupid!
All I am going to say about it is. That 95% of the Buddhists today will never really reach the goal of the real Buddhist! The majority of the human minds are locked and it takes a real powerful enlightened spiritualist to be able to venture that far into his own mind! Think about it... 400 years ago, when the world wasn�t crazy like today... a young child living his whole life in a monastery will spend on average 8 hours a day meditating spend his whole life searching for that divine thought! With the teachings of the Buddha he will use those tools to explore the abyss of his own mind!
With discipline like that and the right tools could you imagine the ideas and feelings he thought, vision and felt? In our daily lives we barley have 2 minutes a day to sit back and think about something...
Most humans today will never even truly understand their own mind!
They spend all day reading someone else�s words, and then criticizing it based on beliefs they have regurgitated from someone else�s book!!
To be a true Buddha is a spiritual journey! I believe all spirituality followers similar principles... it�s a personal voyage of oneself...
It�s not silly! It�s very DEEP! Most people who become Buddhist these days do it out of trend! Or feel some spirituality bonding with them is in order so Buddhism is the more mainstream!
But ZEN, being a GURU, spiritualist or what ever... takes a very special mind to go there... not everyone can be Michele Angelo, or Da Vinci..
Not everyone can reach the far depths of ones own mind! But a Buddhist or spiritualist will devote his whole life to try and do it... but they have so many distractions... how do you think all the logic or philosophy of wisdom comes about? It�s from a man/woman who has been far in his own mind and then written it down and then we have the hard time to try and interpret it... DEEP dude... very deep! There is so much more to Buddhism than going to a temple and pouring water over a statue or admiring some painting from 600ad... or seeing these people with shaved heads and gray gowns... As I said 95% of these Buddhists today will never experience the full enlightenment or true Nirvana...95?? maybe none of them will...
Its not silly dude.. you just don�t understand it and have no desire too� |
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the_beaver
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 4:16 am Post subject: Re: re: |
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| itaewonguy wrote: |
| the_beaver wrote: |
I don't like any religion that I've seen and feel the Buddhism is as silly as Judaism which are both as silly as Christianity.
I have nothing against the practitioners of these different beliefs except when they bother me on the street. |
That�s because your mind hasn�t evolved enough to understand it...
You say its silly and that�s a normal thing to say... when a human WHO doesn�t know something and has a closed mind or a mind which is not fully evolved or open he will say THATS STUPID! Just because you don�t understand it or don�t want to doesn�t mean it�s stupid!
All I am going to say about it is. That 95% of the Buddhists today will never really reach the goal of the real Buddhist! The majority of the human minds are locked and it takes a real powerful enlightened spiritualist to be able to venture that far into his own mind! Think about it... 400 years ago, when the world wasn�t crazy like today... a young child living his whole life in a monastery will spend on average 8 hours a day meditating spend his whole life searching for that divine thought! With the teachings of the Buddha he will use those tools to explore the abyss of his own mind!
With discipline like that and the right tools could you imagine the ideas and feelings he thought, vision and felt? In our daily lives we barley have 2 minutes a day to sit back and think about something...
Most humans today will never even truly understand their own mind!
They spend all day reading someone else�s words, and then criticizing it based on beliefs they have regurgitated from someone else�s book!!
To be a true Buddha is a spiritual journey! I believe all spirituality followers similar principles... it�s a personal voyage of oneself...
It�s not silly! It�s very DEEP! Most people who become Buddhist these days do it out of trend! Or feel some spirituality bonding with them is in order so Buddhism is the more mainstream!
But ZEN, being a GURU, spiritualist or what ever... takes a very special mind to go there... not everyone can be Michele Angelo, or Da Vinci..
Not everyone can reach the far depths of ones own mind! But a Buddhist or spiritualist will devote his whole life to try and do it... but they have so many distractions... how do you think all the logic or philosophy of wisdom comes about? It�s from a man/woman who has been far in his own mind and then written it down and then we have the hard time to try and interpret it... DEEP dude... very deep! There is so much more to Buddhism than going to a temple and pouring water over a statue or admiring some painting from 600ad... or seeing these people with shaved heads and gray gowns... As I said 95% of these Buddhists today will never experience the full enlightenment or true Nirvana...95?? maybe none of them will...
Its not silly dude.. you just don�t understand it and have no desire too� |
Naw. |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 4:27 am Post subject: Re: re: |
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 Said:
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That�s because your mind hasn�t evolved enough to understand it...
You say its silly and that�s a normal thing to say... when a human WHO doesn�t know something and has a closed mind or a mind which is not fully evolved or open he will say THATS STUPID! Just because you don�t understand it or don�t want to doesn�t mean it�s stupid!
All I am going to say about it is. That 95% of the Buddhists today will never really reach the goal of the real Buddhist! The majority of the human minds are locked and it takes a real powerful enlightened spiritualist to be able to venture that far into his own mind! Think about it... 400 years ago, when the world wasn�t crazy like today... a young child living his whole life in a monastery will spend on average 8 hours a day meditating spend his whole life searching for that divine thought! With the teachings of the Buddha he will use those tools to explore the abyss of his own mind!
With discipline like that and the right tools could you imagine the ideas and feelings he thought, vision and felt? In our daily lives we barley have 2 minutes a day to sit back and think about something...
Most humans today will never even truly understand their own mind!
They spend all day reading someone else�s words, and then criticizing it based on beliefs they have regurgitated from someone else�s book!!
To be a true Buddha is a spiritual journey! I believe all spirituality followers similar principles... it�s a personal voyage of oneself...
It�s not silly! It�s very DEEP! Most people who become Buddhist these days do it out of trend! Or feel some spirituality bonding with them is in order so Buddhism is the more mainstream!
But ZEN, being a GURU, spiritualist or what ever... takes a very special mind to go there... not everyone can be Michele Angelo, or Da Vinci..
Not everyone can reach the far depths of ones own mind! But a Buddhist or spiritualist will devote his whole life to try and do it... but they have so many distractions... how do you think all the logic or philosophy of wisdom comes about? It�s from a man/woman who has been far in his own mind and then written it down and then we have the hard time to try and interpret it... DEEP dude... very deep! There is so much more to Buddhism than going to a temple and pouring water over a statue or admiring some painting from 600ad... or seeing these people with shaved heads and gray gowns... As I said 95% of these Buddhists today will never experience the full enlightenment or true Nirvana...95?? maybe none of them will...
Its not silly dude.. you just don�t understand it and have no desire too� |
Prove it. |
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itaewonguy
Joined: 25 Mar 2003
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| Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 5:14 am Post subject: Re: re: |
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get educated! plenty of books you could read on it..
why waste your time reading harris, hitchens and dawkins, why not try to understand for your own..
ooops that right.. you are part of the cult!!!
expected!!
ohh well best to go climb back into your cave dude..
[/quote] |
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seoulunitarian
Joined: 06 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 5:53 pm Post subject: re: |
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Itaewonguy,
If you don't mind, could you please spell out what it is you actually believe in (preferably without caps, repeated letters for exaggeration, or unnecessary punctuation)? I am genuinely confused since you call yourself an agnostic, but take such a firm stand for things no agnostic would think of supporting. Thanks in advance.
Peace |
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itaewonguy
Joined: 25 Mar 2003
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| Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 6:26 pm Post subject: Re: re: |
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| seoulunitarian wrote: |
Itaewonguy,
If you don't mind, could you please spell out what it is you actually believe in (preferably without caps, repeated letters for exaggeration, or unnecessary punctuation)? I am genuinely confused since you call yourself an agnostic, but take such a firm stand for things no agnostic would think of supporting. Thanks in advance.
Peace |
Look up the word agnostic!!
what am I taking a firm stand on?? I am questioning how athiests have come to their conclusion with the brain they have!
I believe in a high power! Call it god; call it the designer, creator, whatever
I do not take the side of the atheist...
What do you believe???
If you have been following my arguments a lot of questions go unanswered...
Neurological, biological, spiritual etc... becuase science cant answer them!
thats the mystery thats the motivation, we all know there is something else.. thats what drives everyone..
You need to start to look at the world in a more positive way... then maybe you will see the light! Stay in the dark and you will see only darkness. im talking about jesus, allah or what ever..
Think about my emotion and neurological questions..
You want to believe you are nothing more than impulses you can...
Fact is science will never give scientific validated answers on it... becuase they can only give theories... fact is somethings can�t be answered!
So you will spend your whole life looking and never get it...
But you choose to live your life as a pessimist and I will live mine as an optimist.. Both can�t prove each other wrong! Now it�s a matter of how we see the world. And how our brains are designed!
You said last week.. �We are nothing more than our bodies"
What did you actually mean by that? Can you give me more or a personal message on what you truly believe about that?? |
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seoulunitarian
Joined: 06 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 6:32 pm Post subject: Re: re: |
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| itaewonguy wrote: |
| seoulunitarian wrote: |
Itaewonguy,
If you don't mind, could you please spell out what it is you actually believe in (preferably without caps, repeated letters for exaggeration, or unnecessary punctuation)? I am genuinely confused since you call yourself an agnostic, but take such a firm stand for things no agnostic would think of supporting. Thanks in advance.
Peace |
Look up the word agnostic!!
what am I taking a firm stand on?? I am questioning how athiests have come to their conclusion with the brain they have!
I believe in a high power! Call it god; call it the designer, creator, whatever
I do not take the side of the atheist...
What do you believe???
If you have been following my arguments a lot of questions go unanswered...
Neurological, biological, spiritual etc... becuase science cant answer them!
thats the mystery thats the motivation, we all know there is something else.. thats what drives everyone..
You need to start to look at the world in a more positive way... then maybe you will see the light! Stay in the dark and you will see only darkness. im talking about jesus, allah or what ever..
Think about my emotion and neurological questions..
You want to believe you are nothing more than impulses you can...
Fact is science will never give scientific validated answers on it... becuase they can only give theories... fact is somethings can�t be answered!
So you will spend your whole life looking and never get it...
But you choose to live your life as a pessimist and I will live mine as an optimist.. Both can�t prove each other wrong! Now it�s a matter of how we see the world. And how our brains are designed!
You said last week.. �We are nothing more than our bodies"
What did you actually mean by that? Can you give me more or a personal message on what you truly believe about that?? |
If you believe in a higher power, you're a theist, not an agnostic.
What I mean by "we are nothing more than our bodies" is that all emotion, all experience, all meaning, and anything felt as "spiritual" is ultimately a result of our material existence - mostly the workings of neurological processes.
Peace |
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ED209
Joined: 17 Oct 2006
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| Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 7:19 pm Post subject: Re: re: |
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| itaewonguy wrote: |
I believe in a high power! Call it god; call it the designer, creator, whatever
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That's a huge commitment for an agnostic
| itaewonguy wrote: |
Think about my emotion and neurological questions..
You want to believe you are nothing more than impulses you can...
Fact is science will never give scientific validated answers on it... |
Better tell all those neurologists they're wasting their time. Despite their long practice of manipulating and recreating emotions.
They might also be able to tell you what you believe though.
Personal Convictions May Control Both Behavior and Emotions
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| The findings suggest that it may one day be possible to use brain scans to reliably detect belief, disbelief and uncertainty in people. |
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Rteacher
Joined: 23 May 2005
Location: Western MA, USA
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| Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 8:19 pm Post subject: |
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"ED209"s link indicates that disbelief is associated with disgust - perhaps explaining why so many atheists are so disgusting. 
Actually, I think that the correlation with disgust is due to some atheists disgust with fake religionists.
And the physiological correlation with particular regions of the brain does not prove that consciousness is material. The nonphysical soul utilizes the brain, which is basically a complex machine. It's a machine that performs different functions for the real person - the spirit-soul.
Consciousness controls matter.
The study is also ominous though in it's potential mind-control applications afforded power-hungry government by materialistic science...
Last edited by Rteacher on Tue Jan 22, 2008 8:35 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 8:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Rteacher wrote: |
| It may require faith, but it's rational to accept that all laws of nature are arranged by an infinitely intelligent being to supply all necessities of life for all the various species of life. |
Another article of faith. |
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