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itaewonguy
Joined: 25 Mar 2003
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 Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 6:07 am Post subject: |
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Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep? |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 2:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Rteacher wrote: |
Ignoring the logic of my posts indicates tacit acceptance...  |
You offer no logic. You offer statements of faith. |
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seoulunitarian
Joined: 06 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 7:32 pm Post subject: re: |
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| itaewonguy wrote: |
| seoulunitarian wrote: |
Where do you believe yours come from if not from neurological processes? Does your love, anger, envy, etc come from somewhere outside of your own brain? And more importantly (please focus on this question), do you really think it is more reasonable that your emotions are derived from an oversoul or some such thing, or from your brain?
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my emotions are all part of my body just like yours..
nothing about my brain, processes are different to yours..
I believing in the possiblity of a god doesn't mean my emotions or soul are in touch with angels or being controled by them..
we are all the same and all our bodies work the same..
| Quote: |
If the theist's and atheist's emotions, desires, intuitions all come from the same source (i.e. the brain), how can you call the atheist's emotions, desires, intuitions basically meaningless while calling the theist's inherently meaningful?
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this is a huge question.
Ok well I don�t think the atheist�s emotions are meaningless btw you said that not me..
But I believe if you think that way then theists� emotions are also meaningless ..
So I believe the opposite to be true..
I think our emotions, desires, intuitions etc.. All have a will.. All have a will to grow, function, and live! It�s all part of natures plan isn�t it.. Every thing grows! Even the universe!
So if you believe that we have no will, have no meaning, have no course
Then the very first spark which ignited all of this had no meaning. And I find that hard to believe because everything needs a meaning,or will..
Then I find natural selection hard to swallow..
If we told ourselves that we are meaningless and we have no purpose I find it hard that evolution would have gotten us this far.
From the beginning of time man has looked up at the stars and looked for answers! To ask someone bigger than he is.. We meditate to search for answers all things have a meaning all things have a purpose. Our mind is growing and our desire to live forever maybe makes us grow we have a will to live.
You asking a question has a purpose and a meaning
Your DNA has a purpose and the amino acid has a purpose to combine with the protein.
So why doesn�t our emotions? It seems our purpose to live is to grow right?
That means we have will. All our chemicals in our body work together to grow.. Every thing has its part and grows to survive and live on, we live on by passing on DNA or genes etc.. So what about the brain? Why should only organs and genes etc only have a will and purpose? We love we hate, we desire because those emotions are calling out to be used! They all want to grow! The world is capable of loving each other!
The world is also capable of killing each other.. Emotions want to grow! They have a will and are powerful..
Now of course I don�t have the answers to there being a god!.. But there are countless probabilities of what our god is. One off the top of my head let me seeee.
OK im off topic now....
Perhaps our god is just a governor of this universe! And he answers to another god! And he to another. As all living things on earth answer to something and work off another to survive. The ultimate question is who made the first??? Well its impossible to even conceive of him because he is so great and almighty as is this universe we live in we just cant mathematical comprehend his existence but im sure if we had the know how it would make sense.. Now of course that�s an example im just saying. I look at scientists and read their books and they are all confused when confronted with the impossible.. cosmology is to intense for me right now to grasp maybe 20 years or so from now Ill give it a try.. but how do you comprehend with endless!?
And I ask myself the universe is endless right? ... ENDLESS...
Now in an endless universe with black holes, quasars, and event horizons
Then who knows what is out there And what goes on in the very core of our brain!
It seems our mind is endless too and expanding right?
Now skeptics could say nothing is in a black hole! And others would say well..
The past is in there.. The universe is such a complex thing where everything and anything is possible. Endless?? Think about that for a second�endless
our minds are endless and everything can be endless...
All is possible!
except of a powerful thing controlling it. Why is that??
Because we cant see it?? we are all afraid of the unknown
Damn I have gone way off track.. I must be bored hahahaa
Hahaahaha sorry
But yeah to finish off.. I don�t know about brain processes or their meanings how can we know for sure and their is no way to do an experiment to know for sure.. how do you do a test on will?
Because it�s all just a wild guess isn�t. Our only ability is to try and understand and comprehend what we can reach inside our minds and everything we can see about what is real to us and not..
| Quote: |
| In other words, love is love is love. The theist's love is no different in category or source than the atheist's, correct? |
thats right.. we are all have the same emotions and use them the same
its just our ideas of how they work which conflict.. |
It seems that there is nothing you are willing to disbelieve, and this confuses and concerns me for one simple reason: how does one's life have any direction whatsoever if they are unable to come to provisional conclusions based on available evidence. I'm actually getting a bit tired of stressing the importance of making provisional conclusions based on available evidence. It is how rational, balanced people operate. It is what we must do if we want to take positions at all. That said, let's move on to your post.
So it seems that we agree that the theist's and atheist's emotions, desires, intuitions etc all come from the same place: the neurological workings of the brain. Your emotions are neurologically produced as are mine. Therefore, since we both accept the same source of emotions, it appears that my emotions would be just as meaningful (in a type of absolute sense) as yours. We do not even have to encounter the god question, because we already both accept the same organ as the source of our emotions. Correct?
The problem seems to lie in the fact that you believe in some purpose or will beyond the actual self. You speak of this will pushing things to grow, though I must admit I do not know what you mean by this. You can expand further if you wish, but I think I can ask the following question based on what I do grasp of your argument: Why does everything (or anything) need inherent meaning (i.e. absolute beyond the bounds of neurological processes and subjectively assigned meanings) or a will of power? Is there any good reason for you to make the statement, "Everything needs a meaning or a will"? Or do you believe that based on the apparent design and apparent meaningfulness you think you see and feel? More simply, is that just another article of faith you blindly accept?
Now, anyone even amatuerly familiar with natural selection will understand that it is a type of blind will. It is not purely random in the popular sense of that word, but is a real type of process. You can find your need for a "will" in natural selection. The process builds on former foundations, which build on former foundations, etc.
However, I would not make the mistake of seeing a type of "will" in natural selection and jumping to the ridiculous conclusion that individual parts of the body have any kind of independent will for survival. The whole being certainly possesses a desire for survival, but not individual organs. This is a foolish and (to use a word we are becoming closely aquainted with) meaningless suggestion. Genes do have a type of will (I'm trying to speak your language), and are carried on to other generations - this is natural selection at "work." And there is some evidence to suggest that certain beliefs are spread from generation to generation in a sort of genetic kind of way called memetic natural selection (a topic for another day). The only possible way an emotion could have any thing akin to a will would be if genes provoke certain emotions. In other words, an indirect type of will. But this is currently just speculation.
One point where you are totally wrong, and have been throughout this thread, is in your belief that there are no experiments to test neurological interactions and the emotions (and even religious experiences) said interactions produce. There are myriad tests, many which have already been completed.
Peace
Last edited by seoulunitarian on Wed Jan 23, 2008 7:42 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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seoulunitarian
Joined: 06 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 7:32 pm Post subject: re: |
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| itaewonguy wrote: |
| seoulunitarian wrote: |
Where do you believe yours come from if not from neurological processes? Does your love, anger, envy, etc come from somewhere outside of your own brain? And more importantly (please focus on this question), do you really think it is more reasonable that your emotions are derived from an oversoul or some such thing, or from your brain?
|
my emotions are all part of my body just like yours..
nothing about my brain, processes are different to yours..
I believing in the possiblity of a god doesn't mean my emotions or soul are in touch with angels or being controled by them..
we are all the same and all our bodies work the same..
| Quote: |
If the theist's and atheist's emotions, desires, intuitions all come from the same source (i.e. the brain), how can you call the atheist's emotions, desires, intuitions basically meaningless while calling the theist's inherently meaningful?
|
this is a huge question.
Ok well I don�t think the atheist�s emotions are meaningless btw you said that not me..
But I believe if you think that way then theists� emotions are also meaningless ..
So I believe the opposite to be true..
I think our emotions, desires, intuitions etc.. All have a will.. All have a will to grow, function, and live! It�s all part of natures plan isn�t it.. Every thing grows! Even the universe!
So if you believe that we have no will, have no meaning, have no course
Then the very first spark which ignited all of this had no meaning. And I find that hard to believe because everything needs a meaning,or will..
Then I find natural selection hard to swallow..
If we told ourselves that we are meaningless and we have no purpose I find it hard that evolution would have gotten us this far.
From the beginning of time man has looked up at the stars and looked for answers! To ask someone bigger than he is.. We meditate to search for answers all things have a meaning all things have a purpose. Our mind is growing and our desire to live forever maybe makes us grow we have a will to live.
You asking a question has a purpose and a meaning
Your DNA has a purpose and the amino acid has a purpose to combine with the protein.
So why doesn�t our emotions? It seems our purpose to live is to grow right?
That means we have will. All our chemicals in our body work together to grow.. Every thing has its part and grows to survive and live on, we live on by passing on DNA or genes etc.. So what about the brain? Why should only organs and genes etc only have a will and purpose? We love we hate, we desire because those emotions are calling out to be used! They all want to grow! The world is capable of loving each other!
The world is also capable of killing each other.. Emotions want to grow! They have a will and are powerful..
Now of course I don�t have the answers to there being a god!.. But there are countless probabilities of what our god is. One off the top of my head let me seeee.
OK im off topic now....
Perhaps our god is just a governor of this universe! And he answers to another god! And he to another. As all living things on earth answer to something and work off another to survive. The ultimate question is who made the first??? Well its impossible to even conceive of him because he is so great and almighty as is this universe we live in we just cant mathematical comprehend his existence but im sure if we had the know how it would make sense.. Now of course that�s an example im just saying. I look at scientists and read their books and they are all confused when confronted with the impossible.. cosmology is to intense for me right now to grasp maybe 20 years or so from now Ill give it a try.. but how do you comprehend with endless!?
And I ask myself the universe is endless right? ... ENDLESS...
Now in an endless universe with black holes, quasars, and event horizons
Then who knows what is out there And what goes on in the very core of our brain!
It seems our mind is endless too and expanding right?
Now skeptics could say nothing is in a black hole! And others would say well..
The past is in there.. The universe is such a complex thing where everything and anything is possible. Endless?? Think about that for a second�endless
our minds are endless and everything can be endless...
All is possible!
except of a powerful thing controlling it. Why is that??
Because we cant see it?? we are all afraid of the unknown
Damn I have gone way off track.. I must be bored hahahaa
Hahaahaha sorry
But yeah to finish off.. I don�t know about brain processes or their meanings how can we know for sure and their is no way to do an experiment to know for sure.. how do you do a test on will?
Because it�s all just a wild guess isn�t. Our only ability is to try and understand and comprehend what we can reach inside our minds and everything we can see about what is real to us and not..
| Quote: |
| In other words, love is love is love. The theist's love is no different in category or source than the atheist's, correct? |
thats right.. we are all have the same emotions and use them the same
its just our ideas of how they work which conflict.. |
It seems that there is nothing you are willing to disbelieve, and this confuses and concerns me for one simple reason: how does one's life have any direction whatsoever if they are unable to come to provisional conclusions based on available evidence. I'm actually getting a bit tired of stressing the importance of making provisional conclusions based on available evidence. It is how rational, balanced people operate. It is what we must do if we want to take positions at all. That said, let's move on to your post.
So it seems that we agree that the theist's and atheist's emotions, desires, intuitions etc all come from the same place: the neurological workings of the brain. Your emotions are neurologically produced as are mine. Therefore, since we both accept the same source of emotions, it appears that my emotions would be just as meaningful (in a type of absolute sense) as yours. We do not even have to encounter the god question, because we already both accept the same organ as the source of our emotions. Correct?
The problem seems to lie in the fact that you believe in some purpose or will beyond the actual self. You speak of this will pushing things to grow, though I must admit I do not know what you mean by this. You can expand further if you wish, but I think I can ask the following question based on what I do grasp of your argument: Why does everything (or anything) need inherent meaning (i.e. absolute beyond the bounds of neurological processes and subjectively assigned meanings) or a will of power? Is there any good reason for you to make the statement, "Everything needs a meaning or a will"? Or do you believe that based on the apparent design and apparent meaningfulness you think you see and feel? More simply, is that just another article of faith you blindly accept?
Now, anyone even amatuerly familiar with natural selection will understand that it is a type of blind will. It is not purely random in the popular sense of that word, but is a real type of process. You can find your need for a "will" in natural selection. The process builds on former foundations, which build on former foundations, etc.
However, I would not make the mistake of seeing a type of "will" in natural selection and jumping to the ridiculous conclusion that individual parts of the body have any kind of independent will for survival. The whole being certainly possesses a desire for survival, but not individual organs. This is a foolish and (to use a word we are becoming closely aquainted with) meaningless suggestion. Genes do have a type of will (I'm trying to speak your language), and are carried on to other generations - this is natural selection at "work." And there is some evidence to suggest that certain beliefs are spread from generation to generation in a sort of genetic kind of way called memetic natural selection (a topic for another day). The only possible way an emotion could have any thing akin to a will would be if genes provoke certain emotions. In other words, an indirect type of will. But this is currently just speculation.
One point where you are totally wrong, and have been throughout this thread, is in your belief that there are no experiments to test neurological interactions and the emotions (and even religious experiences) said interactions produce. There are myriad tests, many which have already been completed.
Peace
Last edited by seoulunitarian on Wed Jan 23, 2008 7:41 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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seoulunitarian
Joined: 06 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 7:37 pm Post subject: re: |
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Sorry for the double post.
Peace |
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itaewonguy
Joined: 25 Mar 2003
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| Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 9:44 pm Post subject: |
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| seoulunitarian wrote: |
It seems that there is nothing you are willing to disbelieve, and this confuses and concerns me for one simple reason: how does one's life have any direction whatsoever if they are unable to come to provisional conclusions based on available evidence. I'm actually getting a bit tired of stressing the importance of making provisional conclusions based on available evidence. It is how rational, balanced people operate. It is what we must do if we want to take positions at all. That said, let's move on to your post.
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Well that�s because science is proven wrong everyday! So 10 years ago we had to make a provisional conclusion on something and stick by it to be considered intelligent? If I went against that theory then I am an idiot?
if I don�t personally believe something to be true based on my own understanding of the evidence at hand and the way the tests are being produced I will say well that�s inconclusive and I believe one day that will be shown to be wrong..
I guess that�s what Einstein did when he challenged Newton.. So I can look at evidence and say.. Well the way its being used and what it actually shows is not enough to give a fact but a theory. Far too many theories in question aren�t there!
Now I don�t live my life that way on everything.. Only on selected topics !
So my provisional conclusion is. "It�s a work in progress"
| Quote: |
We do not even have to encounter the god question, because we already both accept the same organ as the source of our emotions. Correct?
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Correct...
| Quote: |
Why does everything (or anything) need inherent meaning (i.e. absolute beyond the bounds of neurological processes and subjectively assigned meanings) or a will of power? Is there any good reason for you to make the statement, "Everything needs a meaning or a will"? Or do you believe that based on the apparent design and apparent meaningfulness you think you see and feel? More simply, is that just another article of faith you blindly accept?
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It�s what I see and how I see the world working.. call it faith if you will..
we all have faith. faith is when you cant explain something so you use your intuition.. and this point of will.. science cant say for sure..
A will and a meaning ...
By this I mean from the first moment that some sort of life began on this planet it had a job to do.. What was that job? To grow! To function, to live! To breathe. Its will is to survive.. Its meaning is to live and grow etc..
A moment to moment path of action that operates in perfect harmony with Nature. I call it True will... you might call it blind will..
Everything has a job to do.. And everything has a will to do it automatically by itself.
I believe everything working is living! And if something is living it has a job to do.. And to do that job correctly and perfectly it needs a will a will to do it.. A meaning for survival..
Irreducible complexity is a great example for this..
We are talking about atoms, DNA, genes, everything so small, perfect all finding their place in the human body and locking into place to create life and keep us going from the brain to our cells to what ever, etc.
Now all those little processes, genes, cells, etc.. All need to know where they go , they all need to know how to get there and evolve to work properly, grow and then die.. how do they know how to do this? they just know!?
Its meaning is to do its job! Its will is to make it to where it�s going and match with the other thing it needs to survive. It has a will to live.. As humans have a will to live. We are the final product of the trillions of little particles, bacteria, cells etc.. All inside us which all have a will to survive a meaning to do its job if it didn�t then why would it do its job?
why would it want to live? just becuase ?? becuase it has no meaning and has no will, it just does what it does becuase thats just what it does??
hey maybe.. how the hell do we know for sure..
Inside each cell their is something that somehow makes it do what it has to do.. And if its wrong and slips up then we have problems ...
hey I am no scientist or expert on this.. This is just how I see everything in life working. I believe everything has a purpose and no one can prove me wrong because its possible that cells, organs, processes all are born live and breathe and are alive with an intention (true will).
| Quote: |
Now, anyone even amatuerly familiar with natural selection will understand that it is a type of blind will. It is not purely random in the popular sense of that word, but is a real type of process. You can find your need for a "will" in natural selection. The process builds on former foundations, which build on former foundations, etc.
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Yes you are right.. That�s how a pessimist would see it..
but you need to understand also that everything to grow and live needs somekind of will to live..
You say blind will.... But I say maybe but you cant prove that for sure..
thats your faith judgement! and it all is part of the bigger question isnt it.
I am no scientist !
Yin and yang.. Impossible to prove each other wrong... So I guess I take a provisional conclusion on this topic out of intuition(faith) from my gut!
As so do you.. We have difference conclusions because we see the world different. But both realize their is no evidence to deny one another..
So the debate will go on forever.. Blind will Vs True will = yin and yang
Hey everyone has faith! Even atheists! Their faith , their intuition, their way they see the world tells them. NO.. Mine tells me YES..
Evidence?? Both parties are lacking in so many areas it�s not funny..
But parties want to take provisional conclusions based on not enough sufficent evidence because well they need a stance..
| Quote: |
| However, I would not make the mistake of seeing a type of "will" in natural selection and jumping to the ridiculous conclusion that individual parts of the body have any kind of independent will for survival. The whole being certainly possesses a desire for survival, but not individual organs. The only possible way an emotion could have any thing akin to a will would be if genes provoke certain emotions. In other words, an indirect type of will. But this is currently just speculation. |
Again you speak of such certainty when you don�t know for sure..
You believe in blind will natural selection good for you.. I don�t !
And so do millions of other people in the world! I don�t know what Christians say on this I don�t really care.. But I am not alone on this way of thinking. And you are not alone on yours.. Doesn�t mean because you don�t agree with me that I am wrong..
| Quote: |
| This is a foolish and (to use a word we are becoming closely acquainted with) meaningless suggestion. Genes do have a type of will (I'm trying to speak your language), and are carried on to other generations - this is natural selection at "work." And there is some evidence to suggest that certain beliefs are spread from generation to generation in a sort of genetic kind of way called memetic natural selection (a topic for another day). |
Why is it foolish? You sound like a pessimist who would have called me crazy 3000 years ago when I told you the earth is round.. Of 300 years ago I tell you its possible we will go to the moon..
But hey that�s ok...
They all have a will yes, it grows, it functions, it lives.. If it dies you know about it!!
I believe everything has a will, in someway a job to do.. Call it natural selection with blind will YES.. But I can say natural selection with a true will..
If it moves it lives! And if it lives! It has a purpose, and if it has a purpose it has will..
blind will?? true will.. im not saying GOD is controlling it with a remote control or something.. im just saying it has a will.. of course nothing like the will of man.. just a will to do its job ..
| Quote: |
One point where you are totally wrong, and have been throughout this thread, is in your belief that there are no experiments to test neurological interactions and the emotions (and even religious experiences) said interactions produce. There are myriad tests, many which have already been completed.
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Now those tests are only surface deep! How can you test a process when you can�t even grab it! You can test for reaction, or how they work, but you cant test for there cause, or how they grow, how they were born and how they die.. Because you don�t even know how a thought is conceived!
Scientists NEVER want to say they don�t know something.. So they give a theory.. As you like to say.. A provisional conclusion.. Even when they have no clue!
let me finish by saying.. just becuase I believe in all living things have a will doesnt mean I think natural selection with blind will is impossible.
I am just trying to say, everything has a will to live, not saying god programmed everything to make it work.. maybe god just put one atom in us or on earth and that was enough to spark it all.. we just dont know..
end of the day we can read all the books in the world and reach the last days of your life.. and still you wont know the answer to the biggest mystery of it all.. |
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