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Real Issues: Women's Rights
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anyway

Joined: 22 Oct 2005

Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 3:44 am Post subject:

cunning_stunt wrote:

Quote:

As if women are somehow responsible for their own victimization

Certainly in the Western world they often are . If not by creating the idea that they are victims in their head , it's by never accepting personal responsibility for their lives . No man who doesn't achieve his goals or has an abusive spouse gets a "get out of jail" free card to blame women as a whole for his shortcomings .

Truth is often replaced by what is convenient and appeasing to the feminine palate .
(Gender studies)...had a place in the 1970s but these days of equality do we still need to be teaching women that their society opresses them and that they are victims to the big bad men ? Bollocks !

It's not only academics...the Western world conditions people to follow a feminist agenda in almost every aspect of life . That's fine...I don't need society to hold my hand and nurture me through every aspect of life like some special princess .....I can take responsibility for my life .

I mention your punctuation because I find it interesting that such a distinct style accompanies such a distinct individual. Idiosyncratic at best.

Sadly, I think that many people do share your belief that certain laws or actions put an end to those ugly episodes of history like racism and sexism (1970s eh? What was the turning point exactly? Disco?). I sat in a graduate course in the philosophy of education and heard the same congratulatory rhetoric from almost all participants.

I entered this thread because I simply cannot believe that someone can actually make comments such as yours, especially in this country where prohibiting spousal rape is apparently a debatable issue.

Your comment questioning the frequency of sexual abuse and rape in this country because 'females walk the streets at all hours without being all paranoid or neurotic' is really very interesting. You imply that Korean females would be 'neurotic or paranoid' if the abuse were actually serious enough.

Sounds logical from a western perpspective, but it totally disregards the possibility that such frequent abuse is considered 'normal' here, which would then preclude any of the 'neurotic or paranoid' behavior you say would indicate a problem. By the way, how would threat of ACTUAL sexual abuse make someone 'paranoid or neurotic'? You said you took some psychology classes at uni? It seems those words describe the behavior of people who imagine such threats (which aren't real). Of course, there is the fact that numerous studies show that most abuse victims know the abusers, which means women would fear strangers the least.

Again, your assumptions bear great fruit. You seem to think that most men are well-intentioned and too polite (where you're from) for such nastiness. Their greatest wish is to provide for the women who symbolize 'beauty and joy'. You demand to see a study which shows that most men's intentions are bad?! Would you even believe it if you saw it or denounce the authors as radical extremist nutcases?

So you give yourself away little by little. The last post seemed to indicate that society has achieved equality yet society still demands feminist theories be shoved down our throats at uni. Better yet you claim that women want 'hand-holding' - someone to blame for their shortcomings because they can't be responsible for their own lives - although they all have a 'get out of jail free' card. And all in the same breath!

But then, it's clear that the opinions of others matter little to you. So very sure that you're not offensive. Can apparently even make public your own personal inside jokes about the holocaust with no second thoughts. Comments like 'slap yourself' or the others in this thread 'princess', 'f-off', 'carrot in the azz' indicate a lot about a person.

Korea is the perfect country for you.

cunning_stunt

Joined: 16 Dec 2007

Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 3:49 am Post subject:

Quote:

I intrepreted that part differently than you did. I took his telling me to speak up as him acknowledging that their behaviour was wrong and that I was well within my rights to be angry.

Of course it was wrong....men aren't saint ...we do stupid crap all the time . The difference is some extremists (feminists) think it's part of some sort of anti woman conspiracy . Rational people just see it as certain stupid male individuals who don't know how to relate to women . My point is for feminism to be an important movement and women's right to be a REAL western issue you'd have to demonstrate to me that any significant percentage of men were interested in any way in oppressing women or hurting them . I think that's a myth that demonises men and causes tension betweens the genders ...who at the end of the day would be better of respecting each other as individuals , rather than picking fights where there need not be any .

Scarlet13

Joined: 10 Apr 2007
Location: Changwon

Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 3:56 am Post subject:

[quote="cunning_stunt"]

Quote:

As if women are somehow responsible for their own victimization

Certainly in the Western world they often are . If not by creating the idea that they are victims in their head , it's by never accepting personal responsibility for their lives . No man who doesn't achieve his goals or has an abusive spouse gets a "get out of jail" free card to blame women as a whole for his shortcomings .

quote]

I think it depends on the type of victimization. Obviously rape,and physical assults are things that are beyond control most of the time. Yes it is true that women can do things to avoid dangerous situations, but that doesn't mean they should forgo living their lives out of fear and frankly they shouldn't have too.

But I get annoyed with the media that constantly portrays all women as perpetual victims. For example I get angry when I hear that ALL women who work in the porn industry are victims...pleaaseeee Rolling Eyes

there are a few legit exceptions, that says to me that all women are apparently weak minded and unable to take responsiblity for their actions--and that is crap. These women may be exploited but THEY are exploiting themselves.
Too many women hide behind that victim persona and personally it is time to abandon that bs. Those who really need help should get it but being born a girl doesn't make you a victim or give to the right to make dumbass decisions and then lay the blame elsewhere.

anyway

Joined: 22 Oct 2005

Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 4:00 am Post subject:

Scarlet13 wrote:

I don't agree with everything he says but I can see some of his points, and I do think that alot of times normal guys do get shafted.

First of all, I can also understand some of his points. Unfortunately, he tends to pick and choose. Stitching together what suits and what fits with a lot of underlying generalizations.

Can I ask you to explain 'normal guys do get shafted'? I don't follow.

cunning_stunt

Joined: 16 Dec 2007

Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 4:02 am Post subject:

Quote:

Your comment questioning the frequency of sexual abuse and rape in this country because 'females walk the streets at all hours without being all paranoid or neurotic' is really very interesting. You imply that Korean females would be 'neurotic or paranoid' if the abuse were actually serious enough.

Sounds logical from a western perpspective, but it totally disregards the possibility that such frequent abuse is considered 'normal' here, which would then preclude any of the 'neurotic or paranoid' behavior you say would indicate a problem. By the way, how would threat of ACTUAL sexual abuse make someone 'paranoid or neurotic'?

i'm going to make this quick . It's friday night and I have better things to do than argue with bitter people .

Go back to some of my first posts ....I openly said that I think Korea is a sexist society . Since then I have argued against western women demonising western men , or projecting their values onto Korea . In no way have I ever condoned any sexist behaviour on the part of Korean men .

Sadly the reason I'm mistrusting of stats from feministic groups is because in the West they are always manipulated and distorted and full of hyperbole ...they are political in nature and not scientific and it discredits your movement . Release stats that are credible in the future if you want to change this perception , because until you do no-one will take you seriously.

Quote:

Again, your assumptions bear great fruit. You seem to think that most men are well-intentioned and too polite (where you're from) for such nastiness.

My whole life wherever I've been or lived the most important aspect of almost every mans life I have met is his adoration for women and his quest for their adoration for return . To say men have some agenda and ill intention to women in any general sense is a myth .

Quote:

But then, it's clear that the opinions of others matter little to you. So very sure that you're not offensive. Can apparently even make public your own personal inside jokes about the holocaust with no second thoughts. Comments like 'slap yourself' or the others in this thread 'princess', 'f-off', 'carrot in the azz' indicate a lot about a person.

I haven't offended anyone rational . I've offended Cag-hag or whatever .....cause she's an extremist who hates my kind ....so F-her....she wants total equality I'll give it to her like I would any male extremist.....to be honest i don't care enough to get angry about it , but i know she does....it's a fun dynamic to me...

Actually the opinions of most posters on this topic have mattered to me . Scarlett is female and she actually expressed my views far better than my rough style ever could .

anyway

Joined: 22 Oct 2005

Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 4:20 am Post subject:

cunning_stunt wrote:

I haven't offended anyone rational ....she wants total equality I'll give it to her like I would any male extremist.....to be honest i don't care enough to get angry about it ...it's a fun dynamic to me...

Actually the opinions of most posters on this topic have mattered to me .

Why wouldn't someone who's rational be offended?

Why would you give her total equality LIKE A MALE?

Last edited by anyway on Fri Jan 25, 2008 4:22 am; edited 1 time in total

Scarlet13

Joined: 10 Apr 2007
Location: Changwon

Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 4:21 am Post subject:

[quote="anyway"][quote="cunning_stunt"][quote] Again, your assumptions bear great fruit. You seem to think that most men are well-intentioned and too polite (where you're from) for such nastiness. Their greatest wish is to provide for the women who symbolize 'beauty and joy'. You demand to see a study which shows that most men's intentions are bad?! Would you even believe it if you saw it or denounce the authors as radical extremist nutcases? quote] I'm trying to locate it right now there was a very famous study done at a major Americian Uni (UCLA-I think), of the male students involved something like 60% said they would rape a woman if they knew they would never get caught. It came up in a Linguistic Anthropology class, focusing on the language used by males and females, and the ways in which it can cause confusion, and apparently (I say apparently because I have yet to form an opinion) in some cases has led to sexual assualt.

Cognorati

Joined: 09 Sep 2007

Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 4:22 am Post subject:

Billy Pilgrim wrote:

Cog, I noticed you dropped the Daegu fire thread [...]

So how about I continue to take your righteous indignation with several sacks full of salt, and you continue ranting?

Deal?

And you find my arguments and writing style so irrational, so ridiculous, that you now follow me from thread to thread (what is it, 3 or 4 threads?), not addressing the substance of anything I've said, but agreeing with any freak who has a beef -- you've been in Korea too long. Intimidation and stalking tend not to dissuade most rational people, especially when we can see that apologists, like yourself, ARE FULL OF IT, and have the collective IQ of a roasted squid -- and your writing smells as bad.

Please start your own thread (which I doubt you have) and synthesize, for us, your beliefs and perspective about Korea and its society, instead of just jumping in with your ill-conceived and derivative reactionary rhetoric -- now, that would be funny...

Scarlet13

Joined: 10 Apr 2007
Location: Changwon

Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 4:47 am Post subject:

anyway wrote:

Scarlet13 wrote:

I don't agree with everything he says but I can see some of his points, and I do think that alot of times normal guys do get shafted.

I know my history (I have a degree in history and anthroplogy and I focused on sex/gender) and I am a firm believer in the influence of culture. Men's needs are not recognized for a variety of reasons, for one they have traditionally been viewed as strong, intelligent, unemotional and stable. Whereas women are viewed as emotional and delicate. Women's rights are a hugely important issue and I in no way believe that we have equal status or that there is no work to be done. But I do believe that men have also had to deal with society's unfair expectations, the same as women.

The rigid divide between males and females are very flawed and most people find that in one way or another they aren't quite everything they ae supposed to be. Women have greater support systems and a history of working for change, they have a voice and a public forum. What do men have? Silence. Men can't really challenge anything without being labeled as unmanly or in some cases sexist. There was one guy on this forum who talked about his feelings and was promptly ridiculed (by a woman) for having them. As long as we hold men and women to different standards I don't see there being real equality.

Radical feminists do give normal feminists a bad name. There have been groups claiming that married women, straight women, women who shaved, wore make-up or women with children were not and could not be feminists. There were some groups that advocated letting the male gender die out, they lived in male-free communes and abandoned male children. One group even suggested they be chopped up! So while I know that these people are crazy and should be ignored they caused the term feminist to be damages (beyond repair?) for a lot of men.

Cognorati

Joined: 09 Sep 2007

Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 4:55 am Post subject:

Quote:

cause she's an extremist who hates my kind ....so F-her....she wants total equality I'll give it to her like I would any male extremist

Why LIKE ANY MALE:

Because to an unbalanced and antagonistic woman hater (cunning stunt) the rights of men take precedence over those of any female. Men are orginal, normative, and complete -- women are derivative, atypical, and incomplete. The rights of any male trump those of any female, and in his cognitive set, he sees men as the prototype of humanity. Anything that deals with the "feminine" (issues, physique, beliefs, etc) are intrusive to his psyche (he can only reconcile it to what is masculine)...

Yes, he is revealing himself little by little, which is why one need only analyze his writing and see what bizarre somersaults it will take (by the way, the reason he likes <<Scarlett's>> writing is because he finds her non-threatening, and she doesn't produce as much anxiety in his fragile psyche, with his fragile ego. He also, unconcsiously, realizes how much of a woman-hater he seems to be, so he needs a female ally, as a defense mechanism, ie: 'I don't have antipathy to women, see: Scarlett is my friend'). It's interesting that he also diplays a weird dichotomy: Scarlett is a good woman because she is non-threatening and coddles his ego, but I am a bad woman because my arguments are convincing and linear, I am articulate, and I threaten his ego -- this last point is significant, IMO, because most sexists see the intellect as the provenance of men, and emotions as the provenance of women -- intelligent women are a particular transgression and abomination...

I'm curious as to how he will see his/her latest comment:

Quote:

I'm trying to locate it right now there was a very famous study done at a major Americian Uni (UCLA-I think), of the male students involved something like 60% said they would rape a woman if they knew they would never get caught.

Her statistics are unattributed (although I don't doubt their veracity); however, <<Cunning Stunt>> will soften his rhetoric and partically agree with her, but at the same time he will present an apologist argument justifying the rape fantasies of men.

He has villified me, so if I had cited the same stats, he would see them as patently false, highlight the fact that they were unattributed, and use it as proof that I were an extremist.

It will be interesting to see how he reconciles the matter -- my money's on the prediction that I've just formulated...

Scarlet13

Joined: 10 Apr 2007
Location: Changwon

Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 5:13 am Post subject:

Cognorati wrote:

Quote:

cause she's an extremist who hates my kind ....so F-her....she wants total equality I'll give it to her like I would any male extremist

Why LIKE ANY MALE:

Yes, he is revealing himself little by little, which is why one need only analyze his writing and see what bizarre somersaults it will take (by the way, the reason he likes <<Scarlett's>> writing is because he finds her non-threatening, and she doesn't produce as much anxiety in his fragile psyche, with his fragile ego. He also, unconcsiously, realizes how much of a woman-hater he seems to be, so he needs a female ally, as a defense mechanism, ie: 'I don't have antipathy to women, see: Scarlett is my friend'). It's interesting that he also diplays a weird dichotomy: Scarlett is a good woman because she is non-threatening and coddles his ego, but I am a bad woman because my arguments are convincing and linear, I am articulate, and I threaten his ego -- this last point is significant, ...

First off I don't coddle him, I speak MY mind and I have done the work to back it up.I have spent the last five years studying these issues, and I am clearly capable of making my points without resorting to name calling and antagonistic behaviour. Your arguments are not well constructed and now you are attacking me because I don't hate men. You are rapidly losing any credibility you may have had.

I'm curious as to how he will see his/her latest comment:

Quote:

Well I made sure I mentioned it I was not sure as to the actual number, and as well as the context in which it was brought to my attention, he is of course welcome to believe it or not.

rD.NaTas

Joined: 06 Nov 2007
Location: changwon

Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 5:43 am Post subject:

Cognorati wrote:

Quote:

cause she's an extremist who hates my kind ....so F-her....she wants total equality I'll give it to her like I would any male extremist

Quote:

i find Scarletts points very valid and cohesive , just because you cannot make your point in a non-agressive manner you attack one of the only other individuals who has made any sort of logical sense in this thread .I find Cognorati's bitter words very non-linear and childish in all her man-hate filled jibberish.

kiwiduncan

Joined: 18 Jun 2007
Location: New Zealand

Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 6:07 am Post subject:

Cognorati wrote:

Quote:

cause she's an extremist who hates my kind ....so F-her....she wants total equality I'll give it to her like I would any male extremist

Quote:

Cognorati, what you need is a nice boyfriend. Would you like to have coffee some day?

rD.NaTas

Joined: 06 Nov 2007
Location: changwon

Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 6:10 am Post subject:

i would like sum koffee..teehee

anyway

Joined: 22 Oct 2005

Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 6:36 am Post subject:

Scarlet13 wrote:

Men's needs are not recognized for a variety of reasons, for one they have traditionally been viewed as strong, intelligent, unemotional and stable. Whereas women are viewed as emotional and delicate. Women's rights are a hugely important issue and I in no way believe that we have equal status or that there is no work to be done. But I do believe that men have also had to deal with society's unfair expectations, the same as women.

Women have greater support systems and a history of working for change, they have a voice and a public forum. What do men have? Silence. Men can't really challenge anything without being labeled as unmanly or in some cases sexist. There was one guy on this forum who talked about his feelings and was promptly ridiculed (by a woman) for having them. As long as we hold men and women to different standards I don't see there being real equality.

Who exactly was determining these traditional views of men's and women's natures? I assume you are talking historically, since you felt obligated to mention your credentials, which for me means oh say 5-15th centuries AD. It is very well known that in Christendom women were shunned from religion, government, science/academe due to their inferior emotional dispositions, weak physical constitutions, and lacking intellects. Those who managed to slip through the cracks did so based on their relation to a male figure of power.

So if we are to discuss society and its expectations (until much more recently), then who has been largely responsible for creating society? Men. Period. (Again, I'm talking post Greco-Roman time periods.) Women can have all the support groups they wish, but support groups composed of females do not wield economic, political, or religious power.

In fact, what cunning stunt says is true. Women HAD a get out of jail free card - although I would call it a 'go into jail free' card. Whatever they didn't, couldn't, or wouldn't do, the excuse was always the same - their gender. It wasn't possible, practical, or permissible for women to anything a man could do. To believe otherwise was tantamount to heresy.

Historically, I am not sure what voice and public forum women have had when they rarely met in public as often as men did, rarely had the number of social connections as men did, etc. Surely, if you say that they have had each other (network), then the men had at least the same plus all the money, the resources (time - free from housework) not to mention the holy scripture - to back them up. "Men have only silence." That's RICH.

But just to be clear - if men have only silence, who's bloddy fault is that? Women have women in their support groups, no? Well, who should be in the men's ???? Why weren't there any support groups for men?

Scarlet13 wrote:

Men can't really challenge anything without being labeled as unmanly or in some cases sexist.

Poor men. Can't challenge anything without RISKING something!!! Many many women risked everything to challenge. How many lost? And paid in full with their lives? The vast majority of men didn't want to risk their personal (and familial) position and wealth to support heretical positions! Thank you Jesus for Hildegard von Bingen and the like minded mystics, male and female. Let's not forget the witch hunts - which even took place on New World soil!!

Scarlet13 wrote:

But I do believe that men have also had to deal with society's unfair expectations, the same as women.

Yes, but Scarlet, this is a bit like saying Korea and the USA are both countries. The statement makes both seem somehow equal or comparable in some quantitative way; whereas we all know that GENERALLY SPEAKING it's always been a man's world (EXCEPT for very early pre-history!!), a society created by men for men (as in 'man and wife'). Rape and sexual abuse are simply the worst and most vile aspects of the almost total disrespect men have had for women.

OF COURSE, I should qualify the last statement as an opinion, 'dis/respect' means many things to many people. If men have 'respected' women by denying them almost all abilities and/or privileges granted to men (all based on the bible), then some people might say it's not an issue of respect but religion.

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