Korean Job Discussion Forums

[Starperson]

Why are the Korean teachers so soft on the kids?

A child has been extremely rude, hasn't been making any kind of effort to work, or pay attention. I send them out, or threaten them with a call to their Oma or any other number of ways to make them do their work.
The Korean teachers tell me if you have any problems, tell us and we'll deal with them. I can usually handle them. But occasionally they get out of hand and I tell the other teachers, who happen to be tall men (as opposed to me who's a skinny little softy). I look very serious and explain the problem. HOwever, the KOrean teachers tell them off, but often they have a smile in their eyes, like, "Ohhhhh, you're just a kiiiiid. I'll pretend to tell you off."

I believe that I'm a fair teacher. If a student is naughty, it's usually because they're way behind the others and can't understand. So I put in some extra effort with them. However, my patience runs out when I'm putting in a huge effort with them, at the expense of other students, and they continue to be a brat.
Or the other case where they're way too advanced and intelligent to even be in the class, and they play up. In that case I don't mind them so much.

It just annoys me that Korean teachers don't pay attention to their behavioural difficulties. I don't want them to hit them or rap their knuckles etc. just a TRULY stern word or two.

[Corporal]

But think about it, it works so much to their advantage. You are suddenly the fresh new face in town and all the kids are enamored of you--the almighty foreign teacher. You're the one they now want to spoil with presents, to run up and say hi to, to chase after class and follow home, etc. The Korean teacher is old news and boring. Plus the KT is the one that has to dole out all the unfun stuff like homework and grammar. So when you drag the little rascals out to the Korean teacher for disciplining, they play the good cop routine so that they come across as the sympathetic teacher who will always be there for the kids, turning you (in the kids' eyes) into the mean, strange monkey foreign teacher that doesn't understand their language and culture. Works like a charm for 'em!

[Starperson]

Hmmm...haven't thought about it that way.

[Corporal]

Mind you, I don't think ALL (beware of Butterfly's generalizations) Korean teachers are that way. I think some genuinely don't know how to be tough on the kids like some of the little bastards--er, darlings--need. Especially the boys, Mommy's pride and joy. But there is that element of satisfaction the K-teachers get when the foreign teacher loses his or her cool, says "DO something with this little shit, he's not listening" and they can then cuddle defiant Min Soo and say "Are you tired today, sweetie?" and tell them soothingly that they have to do what Mean Foreign Teacher says, even if they don't very much want to. It makes them feel so--needed.

[Ilsanman]

I have seen a Korean teacher ream out a student. When the student returned to class, he was good for the rest of the day, and that is saying a lot for that particular student. He is a hell raiser.

The kid actually hung his head in shame for quite a while. The teacher led him to believe he shamed himself, his parents, and his ancestors. Sometimes they are good at that kinda thing. But yes, often, they just make excuses for them.

If I was in school for 12 hours a day I'd be a brat too.

[Alvin Stardust]

Some good original points there Starperson. I've stopped sending kids to the office for a bollocking, because all they get is candy,a hug, and a 'pull my pinky with your pinky' which means we're all friends! Some Koreans kids in high school can get some rough treatment from the teachers but with the young-uns, I've found that being firm but friendly works best. You don't have to beat 'em (which is not a bad idea!). For truly annoying or 'bad' kids, just sit 'em in corner away from their mates, send 'em out of the room, show a yellow card (if they get a 'red' they're sent out the room & banned for a lesson or two!). You can give 'punishment' exercise to do (jumping jacks, push-ups, etc) but they tend to enjoy it too much and even ask for more!!! Another thing... why do Korean kids always rat on their friends...?

[Austin]

Starperson,

Are we to take from your thread title that you believe teachers should be "hard" on children?

You have admitted that your problem reveals itself when you "run out" of patience. Is there anything you can do to "create" some more patience within you to deal with your students?

Do not get me wrong, we all have our limits, but why should that be the students' fault?

If you can gain some insight as to how to "manipulate" your students to do what it is you would like them to do without them realizing it, would not your troubles be solved?

In other words, do not look to the children for placing the blame of your troubles, but examine what it is that you could do differently to improve your effectiveness as a teacher.

After all, you are looking for solutions, right? Why waste time pointing fingers, when you could be developing some strategies that will help you?

I know some people that beat their students, raise their voice, scream, etc. in an attempt to "control" their kids. Though they get stuck using that type of "behavior modification technique," many would prefer to use a friendlier, more compassionate approach to "control" their students. Unfortunately, the only thing that is stopping these "teachers" is themselves!

Breaking old habbits is not easy and finding the right mix for you is going to take some experimenting.

If you would like some suggestions, I would be happy to provide them in a PM.

Austin

[ratslash]

see my previous posts on what happened to me when i tried to discipline a kid who was hitting me and other kids. it got me sacked! nice.

[rapier]

If your lessons are fun and well prepared, and the class is smallish, generally there are no problems with kids playing up. However with no syllabus provided, and an overworked / inexperienced teacher, and lack of disciplinary support from Koreans, the kids will run riot.
I agree that some korean teachers inevitably dislike the foreign teachers no matter how much you try to like them or extend yourselves to them. They can turn your classes against you if they want, and come out as the most popular teacher- and then say that the foreigner is a bad teacher. Some Korean coworkers are just impossible, miserable people who will try to make sure your year is spent being as miserable as they are. Thus, they will not help you in any way.
However there are some who will effectively discipline the kids and help out. My co-workers are about half and half.
But the whole Korean culure is to let kids run wild and free. there appears to be little discipline or behavioral guidelines. No punishments for bad behavior.. In addition, the kids are allowed the run of the teachers room. That was highly annoying to me at the start but I'm kinda used to it now...
Ultimately you just have to accept that they do things very differently here... trying to change them constantly will result in a year of constant anger and annoyance for you... To survive you must find your own ways of adapting and doing things....I have mine:)

[jpal75]

I have a different experience. My first day at work, on my 1st year of teaching, one of my Korean colleagues gave me a stick and told me to use it. I did't.

Whenever I encountered problems, it was not difficult to send them out and my colleagues wouldn't hesitate in reprimanding them. I thought being yelled at was hard enough until I started teaching in a school. Discipline in all sectors were rampant. Hard discipline.

In high school they are made to waddle like ducks all around the soccer field, girls and boys.
My colleague uses a golf stick without it's putter to hit the kids on the back of their shins!

I believe that the reason they're 'softer' to discipline in Hagwans is due to the fact that MONEY is an issue. A child can easily say to their parent that their teacher is terrible and the parent will pull them out of that hagwan and enrol them into a new one. In schools, transferring them from one school to another would be too much hassle.

[rapier]

Short answer: because koreans are illogical, nonsensical, and chaotic in their work practices. they treat the worst kids like gold, and come down hard on the good kids.
(..I'm having a bad korea day)

[Corporal]

[Mr. Pink]

[Starperson]

Yes, I agree that a class that's based on a well-organised and fun syllabus is more likely to quell bad behaviour. But let's face it - how many hakwons have wonderfully well-organised syllabuses (?).
I admit that my inexperience probably does play a part. But I feel that I'm probably better than the average inexperienced ESL teacher because I studied learning, reward and punishment in Psych, and I've been around kids all my life. Sounds like it wouldn't make a difference, but it does.

Though my inexperience no doubt affects my performance as a teacher, I don't think that I'm pointing fingers. Aside from me and my work - the way that Koreans treat naughty kids is a specific issue.

I think that some children are genuinely naughty and lacking in respect. A good syllabus isn't going to teach them manners ie. 'Hello'; 'Sorry I'm late'; 'when the teacher says your name, look at her'. Just simple manners. They know when they're being rude. I can remember my childhood clearly, it wasn't that long ago, and I knew the difference between being insolent, and polite and obedient.

It's not all the children, and even the naughty ones aren't naughty every day. They all have their days. I had a particularly bad day when I wrote that post.

Another thing I'd like to discuss is routine. I find that if I have a set routine, eg working through a book in exactly the same way every lesson, helps keep them focused and in control. This might be because they think, "Hey, I can do this!". However, I know that it's important to have a bit of variety. But - how to introduce an activity without sending them off the deep end? I find that if I interrupt their routine they can't handle it and go wild.

Another thing is - pride in their work. Everybody here has probably noticed that the good, most skilled and most polite students take pride in their notebooks, make an effort to write neatly and bring pencils, notebooks and textbooks to class.
The poorly behaved students generally have messy handwriting, scrawl all over the page, which is probably the back of the worksheet from their last class, WHICH they leave on the table after finishing the class.

In my personal experience, I find that lack of care for one's written work reflects a lack of care about the whole thing.
And lack of preparation for class also says a lot about the parents.

What's my point.
oh yes. How can I encourage the delinquents to take pride in their work?
I think this one might be in the too-hard basket because of the parents.

Yes, Austin I would like to hear some of your strategies.
Ratslash - you got a link?

[jpal75]