Korean Job Discussion Forums

[wanderingsalsero]

I get ads from SeriousTeachers which usually mention salary and it seems that the salaries they're mentioning are higher than I though the pay scale was. I just saw one with ".....as high as 3.0 mil KW".

I'm making about 2.2 teaching in a 'rural' high school. I've got a Masters too. I'm not complaining about the amount but I'm wondering if some public schools, for new hires, are paying more. That seems a reasonable inference from these ads I'm reading.

I don't surf here much but it also seems I'm noticing more recruiters elsewhere on the net trying to fill public school positions. Is that because there's more public schools trying to fill their slots for 'native teachers'?

Of course I realize the ads could be lots of exageration too. I just want to have some idea of what the reality of the wage scale is because I've got about 5 months left on my contract and I'll be considering whether I want to renew here or elsewhere.

Along on that same subject........if this new President guy wants to put more emphasis on English in the public schools, couldn't that make our jobs (i.e. public school teachers) worth more?

thanks,
WS

[PRagic]

Get a university job and get into teacher training. If you look carefully at 'the new guy's plan', it calls for the training of thousands more Korean English teachers, not an increase of native speakers. University programs in education will be pushing training in English, and a number of these courses will be taught by qualified native speakers.

At least someone in government has finally come out and said what everyone has known for the past 15 years or so; English education here just doesn't work. Where this takes the system remains to be seen.

You'll also notice that Korea is in talks to open the doors to teachers from other English speaking countries such as India and the Philippines. Private institutes may not use them (but I suspect many will if given the chance), but rural schools sure will.

Just my 2 cents.

[wanderingsalsero]

Yeah, I was already interested in the university job angle and I'm definately going to prepare a campaign. There's a slight chance that I might have some other business ventures set up by then and not need the university job but I'll be prepared to go after it when the time comes to make a decision.

By my understanding, even if I do pursue and get a university job, they don't take up much time and I'll still be able to do some other things I do online.

I fully agree with you about the impact of the school system accepting other nationalities as English teachers. Yessiree.....I think the public schools would jump at that. Us public school teachers, in my opinion, have a pretty easy job in comparison to most other types of jobs.

But I don't think you addressed my original question. Are salaries going up? In most healthy economies salaries for public employees do tend to go up continuosly, don't they?

Regards,
WS

[wanderingsalsero]

PRagic..

So you think it's an erroneous assumption to think that the new plan specifically means they'll be hiring more Yanks, Canadians, Brits, etc.?

WS

[PRagic]

Yes, I do. From what I've heard and seen so far, the powers that be have taken a serious look at the ESL system as it stands and have determined that, surprise-surprise, they've been flushing money down the toilet for the past umpteen years with little or no progress.

They have two choices if they want change: they can train Korean teachers better and hire cheapter native/near native speakers, or they can hire more and better qualified native speakers.

I've been saying for a while that the ESL teaching market will polarize even more than it has up until now. In the next few years, there won't be much of a difference between public school jobs and most university jobs, except for perhaps a week or two more vacation. For certified and experienced education majors, there may be room for negotiation. Hakwons will be the reserve of the very lazy, the very new, or the very ignorant.

[wanderingsalsero]

Makes sense to me. I guess there's always some change going on somewhere even if it's not readily apparent, isn't there? I'll definately be looking into the Univ. angle.

Right now I'm learning to build and flip websites. It looks like it can be some pretty good money. If I can get it down sufficiently, I'll be free to live and travel where I want because it's strictly an online, no-based business.

Korea, and Seoul in particular, is one place where I'd like to live for part of the year(I'm slightly out of town now) but I'd also like to spend some time in other places....like Argentina, Brazil, Colombia, Thailand, Singapore.

Some of them I've been to before. Others would be a first (Brazil/Argentian).

Best regards,
Art

[VanIslander]

Rural Gyeongsangnamdo, the province around Busan, pays 2.5-2.7 for a Master's degree or CELTA with two years' experience for public school positions. Hundreds of such jobs are open. Less in the city of Busan itself though.

[Unposter]

I had this discussion with the wife just this afternoon. But, I really believe the biggest problem with English education in Korea is it is just not communicative.

It is no surprise to me when the wife talked about some website where all these people complained about how much they hate studying English. Who would want to memorize all that grammar just to take the College Enterance Exam or get a good TOEIC score for a job. It serves no purpose other than those paticular ends.

I have met a lot of Koreans who speak English well including my wife. And every last one of them said, it was because of exposure to native speakers. Every last one.

If Koreans just learn a little communicative English every year form elementary school by the time they are adults I guarantee the vast majority of them will at least speak sufficient English to travel and do basic things beyond the peninsula. Many more will be able to use it for specific purposes.

The reason why many Koreans cannot speak English is because they have never or hardly ever learned English communicatively. It doesn't have anything to do with the hardness of the language or the difference in the word order. It doesn't have anything to do with the inteligence of Koreans or the ability of the teachers. It has everything to do with methodology. How else would you explain the many success stories? Something all the doom and gloom people don't say anything about.

Now, I'll be the first person to admit that at times I have been bitter when some student or some mother appearantly chose some other teacher because I assumed they were more handsome or younger, certainly not better than me. But, I try not too. We have to get over all this competition. I'm better because of my degree. All it means is you spent more time (and money) in school. It has very little to do with your abiltiy to teach English as a foreign language. If you trust in the curriculum and the methodology any educated person should be able to teach English as a foreign language. It is not as they say, "rocket science."

As for salaries, within the education field back home and amongst Korean nationals here, salaries and raises are tied to educational level and experience. But for the vast majority of FTs here, it just doesn't (or hasn't) worked that way. It is more political and market driven. What is your percieved worth? How will the other Koreans feel about your income? What is your visa? How unscrupulous is your boss, your agent etc...

The reality is that there are a lot of forces out to keep our salaries down such as political wrangling between the Ministry of Education and the pride of Korean teachers, hakwon associations etc... That is one of the reasons why though illegal, private teaching is often more lucrative. Real market forces are in play.

My feeling is that starting salaries have been pretty stagnant for awhile. And, unless you work beyond the typical bounds of the field (which many longtermers do) such as private teaching (legally), corporate positions, editing and government jobs, consulting, textbook writing and sales, recording, TV etc..., there is little to no opportunity for advancement.

Since the black market for foreign teachers is huge, (which says much about the demand for foreign teachers which vertually no one is talking about) some take refuge outside the system. Others waste away at their hakwon jobs.

We can talk all we want about master teachers and merit pay. It just doesn't work well in education. Result driven education is full of pitfalls. How do you test it? Who does the testing? What criteria do you use? What do you do with underachieving students? We cannot educate ourselves to perfection. We are still human beings despite the idealism of our education degrees.

Regardless, English education is not about objective results, it is about competitive advantage. There is no minimum standard to meet. It is only am I better than the competition. If everyone in Korea suddenly spoke English, they would just compete on something else. That is the real reason why private teaching is illegal (not taxes, not visa violations -- all things easily fixable) but it is used to get a competitive advantage in the market place (which is something that cannot be fixed).

And, don't think that competitive attitude isn't what fuels Korean jealousy, nationalism, and some Korean teacher's negative attitude toward foreign teachers. They see you as a competitive threat (or an annoyance if you just don't know how to survive in Korea yet).

All this means is that all this moaning about the effectiveness of English education, training, degrees is mostly pissing in the wind. In the end, you either can give a Korean something they want (and will pay for) or you can't. Price is decided by how badly they want it. Sad, frustrating, sometimes enriching but that is the reality of the situation.

Think Art of War. Philipino/a teachers and degrees is all just posturing to drive down wages.

My advice is to talk up yourself and FTs because just like consumer confidence can change the direction of an economy, what you say and do about this profession does have an impact on all of our bottom lines.

Good luck everyone.

[PRagic]

I agree with 99% of your post. I think the point that needs to be driven home, and it is one that you raise, is the issue of credentials. In the future, the 'real' jobs will go to 'real teachers' and qualified, experienced teacher trainers.

There will still be a place in Korea for people looking to get out, see the world, and make a little coin doing it. For people looking to make it over the long haul in education, though (aside from the peripheral work you mention), professional experience and degree level will be deciding factors. It's like that everywhere else, and in Korea, there is an increased emphasis.

The 1% where we diverge a bit is on the Indian/Philippine teachers. They'll be here before you know it.

[suneV]

[Knight Errant]

At hagwons, the salaries are staying the same or getting worse.

I have years of Korean teaching experience, have been certified from TESOL recently, and have fantastic references. That said, the recruiters or owners of franchises who contacted me only offered a salary of 2,700,000 Won WITHOUT housing....cheap buckers.

For the same salary, I got myself a Part time job at a public school working 1 - 5pm with no preparation time necessary.

Recruiters are asking for higher fees from the schools these days as well.
So, Hagwons wanna pay as little as they can.

Had this one reputable recruiter call me and tell me my business that I can only attain a 2.4 salary with housing for a 9:30-6:00 job...Stupid *beep*.
I guess they don't care about experienced teachers anymore and just wanna find a sucker for as little as they can dish out.

[PRagic]

Great example of my point. If you had your MA, you'd be in a much better position. Also, Koreans are starting to discover the merit of the CELTA/DELTA, at least where their training program teachers are concerned.

Experience is fantastic, and should never be discounted. In education, however, no matter the dicipline, advanced degrees rule the day. Many biatch about this, but thems da breaks. In short, experience, means that people have been teaching the same thing over and over for years and years. Higher degrees mean that teachers have been critiqued and evaluated, and have been exposed to new techniques and methodologies.

I'm not saying everyone has to stay in school. I'm just calling it like I see it. It'll be either shiit or get off the pot here pretty soon. If you want to be a 'serious teacher', you're going to have to back it up with committment.

[fusionbarnone]

[suneV]

[steroidmaximus]

I have no doubt they could recruit decent. dedicated teachers from the Phillipines or India; however, I highly doubt said teachers would be pleased with their experience or want to resign, and that after a few years that pool of teachers would dry up after word of mouth made its way around.

It's not just a communicative approach to teaching that needs to be instituted; the students and K-teachers also need to change their attitude towards English and take a more integrative view. That's why English skills are strong in India and the Phillipines, don't you think?