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Cheonmunka
Joined: 04 Jun 2004
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 Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 11:08 am Post subject: |
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Thnx for all that info.
Is there the same level of disenchantment among teachers and violence (in classrooms?) found in middle class areas, too? |
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jaykimf
Joined: 24 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 11:41 am Post subject: |
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| midwest wrote: |
This teacher certification is the reason why the US has the highest teacher vacancy in any developed western country.. |
Respectfully disagree. The problem is with the attrition rates for recently certified teachers who leave the profession for the reasons you cite as well as for reasons such as relatively low starting salaries etc. Furthermore, as far as I know, most developed western countries have similar certification requirements, so it would seem that something other than teacher certification is responsible for the problems in the U.S.
By the way, "Nationally, 11 percent of teachers leave the
profession after the first year and 39 percent leave within 5 years." http://www-cpr.maxwell.syr.edu/efap/Calendar/Conference_May_2005/OndrichPasYinger.pdf
39% may be a lot , but its not quite "almost all" as you claimed. |
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marlow
Joined: 06 Feb 2005
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| Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 3:08 pm Post subject: |
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| jaykimf wrote: |
| marlow wrote: |
| jaykimf wrote: |
| marlow wrote: |
Comparisons with Canada are moot. The market for Korean language teachers in Canada is sparse at best.
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BS. Whether they teach Korean or French or English or Math, teachers in Canada and the U.S. have to be certified. That certification is based not merely on native fluency in a foreign language or expertise in some other subject. It is based largely on training as a teacher with various and specific courses in Education, as well as other requirements. (Which of course may vary somewhat between states or provinces) The idea that teacher certification is a Korean invention to protect Korean teachers is absolute nonsense. |
Anyone teach French in Canada that can't speak French? If not, *beep* off. |
Plenty of native french speakers in Canada who can't teach in public schools because they aren't certified teachers, so you can *beep * off too. |
Does the certification require speaking the language they are teaching? That's the only thing that matters. And I'm sure it's a requirement in Canada, but not in Korea, the land of Korean English teachers that can't speak English, yet get paid well to teach it. |
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Real Reality
Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 3:49 pm Post subject: |
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School English Classes: Quality of Teaching Appears to Be Diminishing
Editorial, Korea Times (June 7, 2006)
http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/news_view.asp?newsIdx=2901058
(the above link may not lead to the correct page)
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... According to a recent survey, a growing number of Korean teachers of English conduct their classes in Korean only, contrary to efforts in creating an environment in which students can be better immersed in English....
... The number of teachers using only English in class was 22.3 percent in 2003, but fell to 19.9 in 2004 and 17.6 last year. Meanwhile, the ratio of those using only Korean in class rose to 12.9 percent last year from 10.7 percent in 2004 and 9 percent in 2003.
We believe there are many reasons why teachers use more Korean than English in their classes. Foremost is their lack of ability to speak English fluently. Attending short-term training programs is the only means of improving teachers' ability to speak English....
However, an increasing number of high school teachers are unwilling to take part in training programs, saying the programs are not helpful in teaching students preparing for entrance exams....
Our miserable teaching environments are causing people to send their children to study overseas. |
Outsourced Korean Tutors to Teach English
By Kang Hyun-kyung, Korea Times (January 28, 2008)
http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2008/01/116_18099.html
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Using the English Speaking Proficiency Testing (ESPT), the survey found 66 percent of these teachers "have a general ability to communicate in English but mistakes in grammar and pronunciation often occur."
The 2005 Test of English for International Communication (TOEIC) survey of English teachers having completed a short-term immersion program also supported the results.
Only 16.1 percent of teachers had proficient command of English without any difficulties, the result said. |
Education at a Glance 2007
Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development
http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/36/5/39290975.pdf
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| Salaries of teachers with at least 15 years of experience at the lower secondary level range from less than USD 16,000 in Hungary to USD 51,000 or more in Germany, Korea and Switzerland, and exceed USD 88,000 in Luxembourg. |
Annual teacher salaries, public schools (with minimum training)
(Expressed in equivalent US$ converted using purchasing power parities.)
Starting Salary: 25,177
After 15 years: 42,845
Top of Scale: 68,581
Attracting, Developing and Retaining Effective Teachers
Country Note: Korea (April 2004)
John Coolahan, Paulo Santiago, Rowena Phair and Akira Ninomiya
Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development, Directorate for Education, Education and Training Policy Division
http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/26/49/31690991.pdf
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| Teachers in Korea have guaranteed tenure until they reach the mandatory retirement age. |
from page 27
Attracting, Developing and Retaining Effective Teachers
http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/26/49/31690991.pdf
More Education Means More Pay
By Kim Sung-jin, Korea Times (December 12, 2005)
http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/news_view.asp?newsIdx=2773192
(the above link may not lead to the correct page)
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| The monthly pay of workers with bachelor's degrees averaged at 3 million won during the nine months to September, while that of workers with the same length of service but with only high school diploma stood at 2.06 million won.... Those with a master's degree or doctorate earned 4 million won a month on average. |
Teacher Labor Markets in Developed Countries
The Future of Children
http://www.futureofchildren.org/information2850/information_show.htm?doc_id=470797
image link: http://www.futureofchildren.org/doc_img/470797.gif
Attracting, Developing and Retaining Effective Teachers - Home Page
http://www.oecd.org/document/9/0,3343,en_33873108_33873555_11969545_1_1_1_1,00.html
Do unions have influence and power in Korea?
Teacher Evaluation Plans Lose Teeth
Chosun Ilbo (October 23, 2005)
http://english.chosun.com/w21data/html/news/200510/200510230014.html
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| The Ministry of Education and Human Resources has backed down over parts of a plan for new teacher evaluations that have drawn the ire of teachers' unions.... |
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marlow
Joined: 06 Feb 2005
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| Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 4:16 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks RR. Overpaid, and not doing a good job.
Maybe the solution is not to raise foreigner's salaries, but to lower those of Korean teachers. Or fund the foreigners' pay with that of Korean teachers. |
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midwest
Joined: 25 Dec 2007
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| Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 7:01 pm Post subject: |
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| jaykimf wrote: |
| midwest wrote: |
This teacher certification is the reason why the US has the highest teacher vacancy in any developed western country.. |
Respectfully disagree. The problem is with the attrition rates for recently certified teachers who leave the profession for the reasons you cite as well as for reasons such as relatively low starting salaries etc. Furthermore, as far as I know, most developed western countries have similar certification requirements, so it would seem that something other than teacher certification is responsible for the problems in the U.S.
By the way, "Nationally, 11 percent of teachers leave the
profession after the first year and 39 percent leave within 5 years." http://www-cpr.maxwell.syr.edu/efap/Calendar/Conference_May_2005/OndrichPasYinger.pdf
39% may be a lot , but its not quite "almost all" as you claimed. |
Are you a teacher? If so, then I ask that you patiently reread what I had written. Certification process is NOT the reason that teachers' become dissatisfied. Instead it is because teachers in the USA have too large class sizes, violence in the classroom, too few resources (read works by Kozel on the USA's inability to provide a single text book in poor school districts). Moreover, teachers frequently feel the pressure of budget cuts and layoffs. Combined, these features of teaching in the US make most teachers leave within the first five years.
You should examine how many paid teaching fellowships are available in the US. We have the most, because we have a greater need for teachers! |
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luvnpeas
Joined: 03 Aug 2006
Location: somewhere i have never travelled
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| Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 8:31 pm Post subject: |
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| midwest wrote: |
| This teacher certification is the reason why the US has the highest teacher vacancy in any developed western country. You want to teach in USA? Simply apply for any teaching fellowship in New York City, Washington DC, Huston, Nashville, Oakland, Los Angeles. Just about any major American city has the program. You get the certification, a salary, a classroom, and typically, the masters in education. However, do your homework as you will find after the 3-year certificition process, almost all teachers in USA leave teaching permanently after their 5th year. They become disenchanted by the large class sizes and their sheer inability to control classes. The violence in American schools and in many neighborhoods, makes it impossible for many teachers to continue their positions. |
Almost all of this is wrong. It is so wrong it is hard to know where to begin. It is full of blanket statements, over-simplications, and claims that need to be supported but are not. It is wrong that "almost all" teachers in the USA leave teaching permanently after 5 years. It is wrong that violence is a characteristic of most classrooms and schools.
One likely reason American teachers leave in higher numbers than in, say, Korea, is that it is much easier to change careers in the US. One of my co-teachers doesn't like teaching, but there is no way she can quit. Her option would be working in a convenience store. |
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midwest
Joined: 25 Dec 2007
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| Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 9:50 pm Post subject: |
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Almost all of this is wrong. It is so wrong it is hard to know where to begin. It is full of blanket statements, over-simplications, and claims that need to be supported but are not. It is wrong that "almost all" teachers in the USA leave teaching permanently after 5 years. It is wrong that violence is a characteristic of most classrooms and schools.
One likely reason American teachers leave in higher numbers than in, say, Korea, is that it is much easier to change careers in the US. One of my co-teachers doesn't like teaching, but there is no way she can quit. Her option would be working in a convenience store.[/quote]
The certification process is expensive beyond the BA. In most states, this certification takes approximately, with full-time study, for approximatley 5 to 7 semesters or 2.5 to 3 additional years. Most returning grads decline the certification process simply due to cost and time. Who can work and go to a university fulltime?
The schools know this and that is the reason why there are so many city teaching fellowships. I have a number of friends who became New York City Teaching Fellows so that they could earn both the master in education and a paycheck at the same time. I also was accepted for the fellowship in New York--the same year a teaching fellow was shot to death in his Bronx classroom--but I chose a different MA program.
School violence is a HUGE issue in USA, do you remember Columbine where 13 people were shot to death, and 23 others were wounded with gun shots? My best friend was slammed in the back of her head with a full can of pop, while standing outside of her classroom. She was unsteady with vision problems for several days but did not suffer a concussion. The student was not suspended and for the remaining year she was terrifed of this very large, and what she termed, anti-social middle-school child. She has since quit teaching, returned to school yet again, to obtain a license in nuclear medicine.
Changing a career in USA is not so easy either, even here you have to have a certification or license to sell insurance.
For further reading:
1) Columbine Massacare
http://history1900s.about.com/od/famouscrimesscandals/a/columbine.htm
2) Kozel, Jonathan. The Shame of the Nation.
http://www.amazon.com/Shame-Nation-Restoration-Apartheid-Schooling/dp/product-description/0739309854
3) Anthony Gary Dworkin, C. Allen Haney, Ruth L. Telschow
Fear, Victimization, and Stress Among Urban Public School Teachers.
http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0894-3796(198804)9%3A2%3C159%3AFVASAU%3E2.0.CO%3B2-%23
4) Teachers Become Casualty of Increased Student Violence
http://www.cleveland.com/education/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/isedu/1201512636151390.xml&coll=2
5) Student Violence in America's Schools
http://www.nytimes.com/learning/general/specials/schoolviolence/
6) Baranca. A Teacher's Solutions for America's School Problems.
http://hubpages.com/hub/A_Teachers_solutions_for_Americas_School_Problems
(Baranca sites to following concerning class size)
"Second, I believe that many of our problems with schools are due to two problems: school size and class size. Excellent education on the k-12 level is personal education, that is, learning accompanied by the shaping of character. Large schools result in anonymity and large class sizes turn teachers into "classroom managers" and policemen patrolling halls rather than what we would classically hope a teacher is about." |
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luvnpeas
Joined: 03 Aug 2006
Location: somewhere i have never travelled
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| Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 2:34 am Post subject: |
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| midwest wrote: |
| The certification process is expensive beyond the BA. In most states, this certification takes approximately, with full-time study, for approximatley 5 to 7 semesters or 2.5 to 3 additional years. |
This is absolutely factually wrong. My guess is that this claim is not true for single state, much less "most" states.
In Oregon, where I earned my teaching license, the process of earning both a Master's and teaching license (i.e. "beyond the BA") takes one calendar year. Oregon is known for its strict requirements for licensing. |
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aarontendo
Joined: 08 Feb 2006
Location: Daegu-ish
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| Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 3:50 am Post subject: |
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| Yeah I've pretty much heard its usually a year. I suppose if you're trying to teach outside of the area you earned your B.A in it would make it take longer . |
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Homer
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 5:11 am Post subject: |
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| I had all the same responsabilities as the Korean teachers and the same hours. |
Ok Midwest..
So you:
Graded the same number of assignments or papers and according the same pedagogical and academic standards?
Had the same or similar administrative duties (office hours, counselling, dealing with parents, attending all staff meetings...)?
Do you also have certification (I think you may have..)?
Marlow,
The only reason I am repeating myself is that you are conveniently avoiding the issue because it does not suit your claims or position.
I am sorry but from what you said here, you do not compare to Korean teachers (full time certified educators) at all.
You have provided no clear arguments to support such a comparison and your impression that "Korean Teachers are crap and not qualified" is not an argument, it is an accusation borne of your very personal frustrations....
I will not ask you any questions anymore because it seems to be pointless as you are stuck to your guns (even if firing blanks).
Good luck with your demands (if you make them).
The day you get certification and get it recognized here is the day you will beging to have a basis for comparison....until then all you are doing is bashing Korean Teachers because you are angry. |
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Real Reality
Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 6:21 am Post subject: |
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Teacher Turnover, Teacher Shortages, and the Organization of Schools
by Richard M. Ingersoll, University of Pennsylvania (January 2001)
Center for the Study of Teaching and Policy, University of Washington
http://depts.washington.edu/ctpmail/PDFs/Turnover-Ing-01-2001.pdf
| Quote: |
Moreover, the data show, again contrary to popular
wisdom, that the amount of turnover accounted for by retirement is relatively minor, especially when compared to that resulting from two related causes � teacher job dissatisfaction and teachers pursuing other jobs. The data show that, in particular, low salaries, inadequate support from the school administration, student discipline problems, and limited faculty input into school decision-making all contribute to higher rates of turnover, after controlling for the characteristics of both teachers and schools.
The results of this investigation suggest that school staffing problems are neither synonymous with, nor primarily due to, teacher shortages in the conventional sense of a deficit in the supply of teachers. Rather, this study suggests that school staffing problems are primarily due to excess demand resulting from a "revolving door" � where large numbers of teachers depart their jobs for reasons other than retirement.
This study also suggests that popular education initiatives, such as teacher recruitment programs, will not solve the staffing problems of such schools if they do not also address the organizational sources of low teacher retention. |
How long does it take to become a teacher?
Baccalaureate Certification takes four-to-five years.
Post-Baccalaureate Certification takes ten-months-to-two-years.
http://www.alleducationschools.com/faqs/gettingstarted.php
Pathways to Teaching
http://www.teacherscount.org/wannateach/how/pathways.shtml
Certification Requirements
http://www.teacherscount.org/wannateach/how/requirements.shtml
What are the basic requirements for becoming a teacher in Texas?
http://www.sbec.state.tx.us/SBECOnline/certinfo/becometeacher.asp?width=1024&height=768#basicreq
How To Become A Teacher In The US
http://www.romow.com/education-blog/how-to-become-a-teacher-in-the-us/
What qualifications or training will I need? (United Kingdom)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/schools/parents/life/you_and_school/working_in_schools/training_teacher.shtml#3 |
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jaykimf
Joined: 24 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 9:07 am Post subject: |
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| midwest wrote: |
Are you a teacher? If so, then I ask that you patiently reread what I had written. |
Even though I am not now teaching, I did patiently reread what you wrote. Now I would ask you to patiently reread what you wrote.
| midwest wrote: |
This teacher certification is the reason why the US has the highest teacher vacancy in any developed western country.. |
and in your follow up post:
| midwest wrote: |
Certification process is NOT the reason that teachers' become dissatisfied. |
You seem to be contradicting yourself. The problem in the U.S is with the many new teachers who, for whatever reasons, leave the profession within a few years. The problem is not with getting teachers certified, it is with retaining teachers who have been certified.
| midwest wrote: |
Combined, these features of teaching in the US make most teachers leave within the first five years. |
Now, I would ask you to patiently reread what I wrote. 39% may be a lot, but it is not most teachers.
| midwest wrote: |
I had all the same responsabilities as the Korean teachers and the same hours. |
Really? How many Saturdays have you worked? How many evenings did you stay till 9 to supervise the study hall? How many Sundays did you have study hall duty? Did you work on the school yearbook or newspaper or website? How many times did you go in on Sunday to hold auditions for the school festival? Did you organize alumni reunions? Did you have to phone all the alumni (mostly in the evening or on weekends) ask them to come to the reunion, collect money and make all the arrangements? How many PTA meetings have you attended? How many funding grants have had to apply for? How many workshops have you had to attend? What student counseling duties do you have? What administrative duties do you have? How many student teachers have you had to supervise ? How many practice university exams have you had to proctor? Which committees have you had to serve on? School affairs committee? Curriculum committee? How many foreign assistant teachers have you had to take care of? How many school trips have you had to go on? How many sports days have you had to attend? Just exactly what duties have you had that were not directly related to preparing, teaching and grading your own classes? The hours my wife spent preparing, teaching and grading her classes was usually far exceeded by the hours she spent on her other duties. Maybe you have had all those other duties too, but I really doubt it. |
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midwest
Joined: 25 Dec 2007
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| Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 9:46 am Post subject: |
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| jaykimf wrote: |
| midwest wrote: |
Are you a teacher? If so, then I ask that you patiently reread what I had written. |
Even though I am not now teaching, I did patiently reread what you wrote. Now I would ask you to patiently reread what you wrote.
| midwest wrote: |
This teacher certification is the reason why the US has the highest teacher vacancy in any developed western country.. |
and in your follow up post:
| midwest wrote: |
Certification process is NOT the reason that teachers' become dissatisfied. |
You seem to be contradicting yourself.
The problem in the U.S is with the many new teachers who, for whatever reasons, leave the profession within a few years. The problem is not with getting teachers certified, it is with retaining teachers who have been certified.
| midwest wrote: |
Combined, these features of teaching in the US make most teachers leave within the first five years. |
Now, I would ask you to patiently reread what I wrote. 39% may be a lot, but it is not most teachers.
| midwest wrote: |
I had all the same responsabilities as the Korean teachers and the same hours. |
Really? How many Saturdays have you worked? How many evenings did you stay till 9 to supervise the study hall? How many Sundays did you have study hall duty? Did you work on the school yearbook or newspaper or website? How many times did you go in on Sunday to hold auditions for the school festival? Did you organize alumni reunions? Did you have to phone all the alumni (mostly in the evening or on weekends) ask them to come to the reunion, collect money and make all the arrangements? How many PTA meetings have you attended? How many funding grants have had to apply for? How many workshops have you had to attend? What student counseling duties do you have? What administrative duties do you have? How many student teachers have you had to supervise ? How many practice university exams have you had to proctor? Which committees have you had to serve on? School affairs committee? Curriculum committee? How many foreign assistant teachers have you had to take care of? How many school trips have you had to go on? How many sports days have you had to attend? Just exactly what duties have you had that were not directly related to preparing, teaching and grading your own classes? The hours my wife spent preparing, teaching and grading her classes was usually far exceeded by the hours she spent on her other duties. Maybe you have had all those other duties too, but I really doubt it. |
All teachers have a great deal of work on their hands. I am asking the foreign teachers to examine their beginning wages with those of Korean teachers' as the trajectory point of salary negotiation. It is all about knowing your worth and avoiding exploitation, and those were and are my main points.
Please read again, dissatisfaction while teaching is not the same thing as a barrier. I cited two things: One, qualified teachers who grow dissatisified and quit, and two, barriers that reduce the availability of teachers, like the certification process. These are two separate discussions.
In addition, I wish to say that I do not need your examination or approval of my teaching credentials or duties, and again, that is not the discussion I began.
Again, your observations are wrong about teacher shortages. Texas, Oakland and Los Angeles, California, New York City, Washington DC, Nashville, and Texas are all grappling with this issue, in fact, if you want to find a fellowship in USA, you can! The certification process delimits the amount of teachers available in many states in the US:
Strategic Plan to Address Teacher Shortages
http://www.thecb.state.tx.us/reports/PDF/0510.PDF |
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Homer
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 11:32 am Post subject: |
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Midwest you conveniently ignored this part of jaykims post.
Please answer these very pertinent questions.
| Quote: |
| Really? How many Saturdays have you worked? How many evenings did you stay till 9 to supervise the study hall? How many Sundays did you have study hall duty? Did you work on the school yearbook or newspaper or website? How many times did you go in on Sunday to hold auditions for the school festival? Did you organize alumni reunions? Did you have to phone all the alumni (mostly in the evening or on weekends) ask them to come to the reunion, collect money and make all the arrangements? How many PTA meetings have you attended? How many funding grants have had to apply for? How many workshops have you had to attend? What student counseling duties do you have? What administrative duties do you have? How many student teachers have you had to supervise ? How many practice university exams have you had to proctor? Which committees have you had to serve on? School affairs committee? Curriculum committee? How many foreign assistant teachers have you had to take care of? How many school trips have you had to go on? How many sports days have you had to attend? Just exactly what duties have you had that were not directly related to preparing, teaching and grading your own classes? The hours my wife spent preparing, teaching and grading her classes was usually far exceeded by the hours she spent on her other duties. Maybe you have had all those other duties too, but I really doubt it. |
I think you clearly miss understand or under estimate what being a full time Korean Teacher entails...or for that matter being a full time certified teacher back home.
I was a certified HS Teacher home...what jay describes was par for the course at my school as far as duties are concerned... |
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