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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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 Posted: Sat Jan 26, 2008 3:05 am Post subject: |
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| animalbirdfish wrote: |
Thanks for the considered reply. I completely agree that this debate (as with a lot of others on this board) too quickly becomes a name-calling contest and very little else.
A couple points, though:
I do, since you mention it, find your argument (bold part) above to be extraordinarily hypocritical, almost arrogantly so. You're willing to acknowledge that, for you, growth substances are superior to other illicit drugs because they supposedly don't alter one's perceptions of the world (however we define that). You're making a value judgment, then, based on your own subjective beliefs and mores, which is fine, if that's where it ended. I wouldn't have any beef with your stance if you could stop at: "I choose not to use drugs, but what others do with their bodies and time is up to them."
What it sounds like you're saying, however, is "I can have my drugs but other people can't have theirs. I'm responsible enough to choose what I do with my body, but other people can't be trusted." |
That wasn't quite my point. My point was, once you start delving into mind alteringsubstancing, judgement is often impaired. Whether it be booze or anything harder, MANY an individual finds it hard to think clearly on the matter. Not only do they have to deal with the physiological aspects of potential addiction, but the psychological ones as well. Couple that with use of a substance that alters perceptions/reason, and you are stepping into a dangerous area IMO.
Basically, if someone starts doing coke, not only do they have to deal with the effects of withdrawal, but they have to be semi-level headed to think to stop in the first place.
Something along the lines of steroids, while some might acknowledge a addiction in regards to the size benefits (but rarely physiological), still leave you mentally unaltered.
For me, that puts those types of substances into different fields.
To put it simply, I'd get into a car with someone who just injected 500ml of test, but I wouldn't with someone who just drank 10 beers, or smokes a couple of joints, or id a line.
((glad we're all being civil about this now - It's an important subject IMO)) |
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animalbirdfish
Joined: 04 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Sat Jan 26, 2008 3:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Captain Corea wrote: |
| animalbirdfish wrote: |
Thanks for the considered reply. I completely agree that this debate (as with a lot of others on this board) too quickly becomes a name-calling contest and very little else.
A couple points, though:
I do, since you mention it, find your argument (bold part) above to be extraordinarily hypocritical, almost arrogantly so. You're willing to acknowledge that, for you, growth substances are superior to other illicit drugs because they supposedly don't alter one's perceptions of the world (however we define that). You're making a value judgment, then, based on your own subjective beliefs and mores, which is fine, if that's where it ended. I wouldn't have any beef with your stance if you could stop at: "I choose not to use drugs, but what others do with their bodies and time is up to them."
What it sounds like you're saying, however, is "I can have my drugs but other people can't have theirs. I'm responsible enough to choose what I do with my body, but other people can't be trusted." |
That wasn't quite my point. My point was, once you start delving into mind alteringsubstancing, judgement is often impaired. Whether it be booze or anything harder, MANY an individual finds it hard to think clearly on the matter. Not only do they have to deal with the physiological aspects of potential addiction, but the psychological ones as well. Couple that with use of a substance that alters perceptions/reason, and you are stepping into a dangerous area IMO.
Basically, if someone starts doing coke, not only do they have to deal with the effects of withdrawal, but they have to be semi-level headed to think to stop in the first place.
Something along the lines of steroids, while some might acknowledge a addiction in regards to the size benefits (but rarely physiological), still leave you mentally unaltered.
For me, that puts those types of substances into different fields.
To put it simply, I'd get into a car with someone who just injected 500ml of test, but I wouldn't with someone who just drank 10 beers, or smokes a couple of joints, or id a line.
((glad we're all being civil about this now - It's an important subject IMO)) |
...nor should you get into a car driven by someone under the influence of those substances. And I'll go you one further: no car should be driven by individuals under the influence of those substances, which is why we have laws that criminalize driving when your blood-alcohol level, for example, exceeds a prescribed legal limit (and even laws that prohibit the use of cell phones while driving). Rather than banning alcohol or cell phones, though, governments disincentivize the use of them in situations where the user becomes a hazard to other people.
A whole host of substances and activities can impair a person's ability to think clearly, be it love, adrenaline, gambling, porn, fame. Addiction is not even limited to chemical substances, and any number of things can spell the end of level-headedness. Rather than making ambition, extreme sports, and the internet illegal, however, governments typically put their time and money into education to help citizens make informed choices. Heath Ledger was apparently an avid surfer, too, but the Australian government didn't prevent him from surfing. Rather, they posted signs that said, "beware of sharks." Seeing that, I'd probably go find a safer hobby, but I wouldn't presume to tell you what to do.
In truth, it's strange for me to be having this dialogue with you on this topic. Like you, I don't do drugs and consider it a shame when talented individuals make bad choices that result in their deaths. The reason I'm willing to engage you here, though, is to counter what seems to be a legislative ambition on your part. As I said before, I'd be happy to leave it at, "not for me, but everyone has to make the choice individually."
It doesn't seem to me, however, that you've really considered the social costs of what you're advocating. Prohibition, aside from making the bootleggers and the Baptists happy, was a failure; and the US drug war has probably accomplished little outside of raising violent crime rates and filling American prisons to overflowing levels. And you want to criminalize caffeine, tobacco, and alcohol? Are you really prepared for the increase in violence - not mention the expense of enforcing such a law - that would result? |
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igotthisguitar
Joined: 08 Apr 2003
Location: South Korea (Permanent Vacation)
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| Posted: Sat Jan 26, 2008 6:18 pm Post subject: |
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Drug-Taking Heath Ledger Was Named Bad Influence
As Girlfriend 'Wanted Sole Custody Of Daughter'
Last updated at 22:41pm on 26th January 2008
Heath Ledger's drug use spiralled out of control before his death because he feared losing access to his two-year-old daughter, it was revealed.
In an exclusive interview with The Mail on Sunday, a member of the star's inner circle, Rebecca White, said Ledger believed his former fiancee Michelle Williams was about to serve legal papers demanding sole custody of their child, Matilda.
Michelle ordered Ledger, 28, out of their New York mansion last autumn because of his drug problem --which is said to have included addiction to heroin and cocaine.
Scroll down for more ...
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/showbiz/showbiznews.html?in_article_id=510412&in_page_id=1773 |
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chris_J2
Joined: 17 Apr 2006
Location: From Brisbane, Au.
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| Posted: Sat Jan 26, 2008 6:40 pm Post subject: |
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| He was not the type to have killed himself. The way I hear it, he went out the night before, he was doing cocaine, he wasn't able to sleep, and the investigators think he woke up, didn't remember taking sleeping pills and then took what accidentally was an overdose |
Sounds like the ambien did him in:
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Called Ambien in the US, the tablet is marketed as Stilnox in Australia and hit headlines last year when a national drug hotline fielded calls from users reporting strange side-effects.
About 500 people described odd behaviours from walking, crashing cars, having sex and falling from balconies after popping a pill.
Jack Nicholson said:"I took Ambien once. I fell asleep and then got a call and almost drove off a cliff 50 yards from my house.'' |
Stilnox / Ambien has since been restricted in Australia.
"On 6 April 2007 Australia's Therapeutic Goods Administration ordered the manufacturer to upgrade its warning about mixing the pills with alcohol.[34] There are also plans to move the drug to a tougher class of medicines (Schedule 8 status) in Australia because of its susceptibility to abuse and addiction. This would place the drug in the same class as opioids (eg. morphine), psychostimulants (eg. methylphenidate, dexamphetamine), and flunitrazepam (Rohypnol, Hypnodorm).[35]
There are many unsubstantiated reports on the internet of people who have had issues with this medication.[36]
On March 14, 2007, the US Food and Drug Administration ordered stronger warnings on 13 prescription sleep-hypnotic drugs including zolpidem and eszopiclone. The dangers of allergic reactions and driving while intoxicated, while serious, are not thought to be sufficient to withdraw the drugs from the market.[37]" (Wiki)
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The updated warning now also mentions less common side-effects such as "rage reactions, worsened insomnia, confusion, agitation, hallucinations and other forms of unwanted behaviour".
A national drug reactions hotline fielded 500 calls from Stilnox users who reported odd behaviours from crashing cars to falling from balconies after popping a pill. One patient gained 23 kilograms over seven months after unknowingly eating from the refrigerator while asleep. Another patient woke up with a paintbrush in her hand after painting the front door.
The manufacturer Sanofi-Aventis said it was difficult to establish whether these behaviours were triggered by the drug, or were "spontaneous" or caused by an underlying condition.
Although he couldn't comment specifically on the case, general practitioner John Gullotta said: "In general, pneumonia can be a fatal condition if it progresses quickly and it hasn't got better with treatment. Sometimes sleeping tablets can add to that and can cause respiratory problems.
"The benzodiazepine class of sleeping tablet can dampen down breathing. It all depends how many [the person] takes and the dosage," Dr Gullotta, who is also the chairman of the therapeutic committee of the Australian Medical Association, said. But he added that respiratory problems were not that common with Stilnox. |
(SMH) |
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igotthisguitar
Joined: 08 Apr 2003
Location: South Korea (Permanent Vacation)
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| Posted: Sat Jan 26, 2008 7:18 pm Post subject: |
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| chris_J2 wrote: |
The updated warning now also mentions less common side-effects such as "rage reactions, worsened insomnia, confusion, agitation, hallucinations and other forms of unwanted behaviour".
A national drug reactions hotline fielded 500 calls from Stilnox users who reported odd behaviours from crashing cars to falling from balconies after popping a pill. One patient gained 23 kilograms over seven months after unknowingly eating from the refrigerator while asleep. Another patient woke up with a paintbrush in her hand after painting the front door.
The manufacturer Sanofi-Aventis said it was difficult to establish whether these behaviours were triggered by the drug, or were "spontaneous" or caused by an underlying condition. |
Who cares? Can't really be that bad for people, right?
Stress, worry, anxiety, insomnia?
Got a few little problems in your life you just can't seem to deal with?
We can "help".
That's why they're "legal"  |
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kingplaya4
Joined: 14 May 2006
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| Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2008 11:26 am Post subject: |
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Well Christian Brando has just died at 49 from pneumonia.
With Heath, I just don't buy it was the sleeping pills unless it was a clear suicide attempt (where he took the whole bottle, and even that rarely leads to death). As far as him having anxiety pills as well, I've taken both and taken some extra doses of sleeping pills more than I should have many times over 10 years when I first started on them. I'm starting to think that was very foolish and I need to quit that, but I find it hard to believe such a thing could kill an otherwise healthy young man.
My guess it was the pneumonia, combined with him taking more sleeping pills than he should have in hopes of finally having a goodnight's rest.
Apparently about 2 years back a 31 year old actress from Meet the Parents died of pneumonia as well. I had pneumonia myself at 8, and never particularly had thought it was that serious at the time until I heard some of these stories recently. Anyway, I had a coworker last year who had pneumonia and only took a day off from the hagwon, he ended being fine, but I hope people use these stories both on people being careful with the sleeping pills and also if godforbid you catch pneunonia. |
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 6:43 am Post subject: |
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Montel turns the tables on a Fox Morning Television show
Montel Williams turned the question on live television when he choose to focus on the soldiers dying in Iraq rather than the passing of Heath Ledger. Montel did not return for a further segment and probably won't be invited back.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=co3Spcq6Uzs |
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suneV
Joined: 10 Jan 2008
Location: At the Flop
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| Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 10:23 pm Post subject: |
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| 4 months left wrote: |
| Captain Corea wrote: |
But... ut, I thought that dugs didn't harm you?? Isn't that whatmany on this board have tried to put across?? |
What are dugs and whatmany...what drugs are you on now? I'm not a spelling nazi, just tired of your continued uniformed stupidity. Do some research about weed and then you'll stop posting that DUGS are bad. Do you have a 3rd grade reading level and can you use a search function?? Yes coke, herion, alcohol and cigarettes are bad dugs, weed isn't, like you keep posting on every thread.
Too bad he died but what is really sad is that I flipped on Good Morning America and it was the lead story. What a sad statement about society when the possible overdose/suicide of an actor is the main story when the world economy is crashing. |
Weed is as dangerous as tobacco and alchohol, easilly. |
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endo
Joined: 14 Mar 2004
Location: Seoul...my home
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| Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 11:44 pm Post subject: |
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| suneV wrote: |
| 4 months left wrote: |
| Captain Corea wrote: |
But... ut, I thought that dugs didn't harm you?? Isn't that whatmany on this board have tried to put across?? |
What are dugs and whatmany...what drugs are you on now? I'm not a spelling nazi, just tired of your continued uniformed stupidity. Do some research about weed and then you'll stop posting that DUGS are bad. Do you have a 3rd grade reading level and can you use a search function?? Yes coke, herion, alcohol and cigarettes are bad dugs, weed isn't, like you keep posting on every thread.
Too bad he died but what is really sad is that I flipped on Good Morning America and it was the lead story. What a sad statement about society when the possible overdose/suicide of an actor is the main story when the world economy is crashing. |
Weed is as dangerous as tobacco and alchohol, easilly. |
Provide me with one, just one source thatr directly ties weed to dead  |
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kingpin
Joined: 23 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 2:52 am Post subject: |
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| suneV wrote: |
| 4 months left wrote: |
| Captain Corea wrote: |
But... ut, I thought that dugs didn't harm you?? Isn't that whatmany on this board have tried to put across?? |
What are dugs and whatmany...what drugs are you on now? I'm not a spelling nazi, just tired of your continued uniformed stupidity. Do some research about weed and then you'll stop posting that DUGS are bad. Do you have a 3rd grade reading level and can you use a search function?? Yes coke, herion, alcohol and cigarettes are bad dugs, weed isn't, like you keep posting on every thread.
Too bad he died but what is really sad is that I flipped on Good Morning America and it was the lead story. What a sad statement about society when the possible overdose/suicide of an actor is the main story when the world economy is crashing. |
Weed is as dangerous as tobacco and alchohol, easilly. |
And so...? Therefore...? Which means...? |
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chris_J2
Joined: 17 Apr 2006
Location: From Brisbane, Au.
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| Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 3:26 am Post subject: |
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Newsflash!
Car accidents are often fatal.
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| Provide me with one, just one source thatr directly ties weed to dead |
Here you go : http://www.family.samhsa.gov/teach/driving.aspx
| Quote: |
What To Know
Marijuana affects a driver�s alertness, concentration, coordination, and reaction time. People who use marijuana and drive display the same lack of coordination on standard �drunk driver� tests as people who have had too much alcohol. 1
Marijuana, like other drugs and alcohol, can make it harder for a driver to judge distances and react to signals and sounds on the road.2 For example, a driver who has smoked marijuana may have trouble judging how long it will take his car to slow down when he hits the brakes, and may struggle to coordinate steering and braking.
The effects of marijuana on driving can last up to 24 hours.3 An accident that happens today could be the result of someone�s choice to use marijuana at a party last night.
About one in six high school seniors in the United States has driven under the influence of marijuana,4 but teen drivers seem unconcerned about the danger that comes with getting behind the wheel after smoking pot. Forty-one percent of teens polled by Students Against Destructive Decisions/Liberty Mutual said they were not worried about driving after using drugs.5 |
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endo
Joined: 14 Mar 2004
Location: Seoul...my home
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| Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 4:38 am Post subject: |
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| chris_J2 wrote: |
Newsflash!
Car accidents are often fatal.
| Quote: |
| Provide me with one, just one source thatr directly ties weed to dead |
Here you go : http://www.family.samhsa.gov/teach/driving.aspx
| Quote: |
What To Know
Marijuana affects a driver�s alertness, concentration, coordination, and reaction time. People who use marijuana and drive display the same lack of coordination on standard �drunk driver� tests as people who have had too much alcohol. 1
Marijuana, like other drugs and alcohol, can make it harder for a driver to judge distances and react to signals and sounds on the road.2 For example, a driver who has smoked marijuana may have trouble judging how long it will take his car to slow down when he hits the brakes, and may struggle to coordinate steering and braking.
The effects of marijuana on driving can last up to 24 hours.3 An accident that happens today could be the result of someone�s choice to use marijuana at a party last night.
About one in six high school seniors in the United States has driven under the influence of marijuana,4 but teen drivers seem unconcerned about the danger that comes with getting behind the wheel after smoking pot. Forty-one percent of teens polled by Students Against Destructive Decisions/Liberty Mutual said they were not worried about driving after using drugs.5 |
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Care to provide a specific case Einstein!
Sure weed impairs some peoples driving skills. Especially newbies.
However, I've seen studies which say otherwise. One from Australia and one from Washington state.
But please show me a specific case where someone dies of a car accident while under the influence of marijuana?
And just marijuana, not a mixture of other drugs as well. |
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chris_J2
Joined: 17 Apr 2006
Location: From Brisbane, Au.
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| Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 4:58 am Post subject: illicit subtance abuse |
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| Quote: |
| Investigators wrote: "The findings point to cannabis as a potential risk factor in fatal crashes. Individuals who tested positive for cannabis but negative for alcohol had a 29 percent excess risk of having driven in a fashion that may have contributed to the crash, compared to drivers who tested negative for cannabis. ..." |
http://www.canorml.org/healthfacts/drivingstudy_new.htm
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Studies conducted in a number of localities have found that approximately 4 to 14 percent of drivers who sustained injury or death in traffic accidents tested positive for delta-9-tetrahydrocannabinol (THC), the active ingredient in marijuana.6
In a large study of almost 3,400 fatally injured drivers from 3 Australian states (Victoria, New South Wales, and Western Australia) between 1990 and 1999, drugs other than alcohol were present in 26.7 percent of the cases.7 These included cannabis (13.5 percent), opioids (4.9 percent), stimulants (4.1 percent), benzodiazepines (4.1 percent), and other psychotropic drugs (2.7 percent). Almost 10 percent of the cases involved both alcohol and drugs.
According to NHTSA, vehicle accidents are the leading cause of death among those aged 15 to 20.8 It is generally accepted that because teens are the least experienced drivers as a group, they have a higher risk of being involved in an accident compared with more experienced drivers. When this lack of experience is combined with the use of marijuana or other substances that impact cognitive and motor abilities, the results can be tragic. |
http://www.nida.nih.gov/Infofacts/driving.html
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| Marijuana is the most common illicit substance consumed by motorists who report driving after drug use.10 Epidemiological research also indicates that cannabis is the most prevalent illicit drug detected in fatally injured drivers and motor vehicle crash victims.11 Reasons for this are twofold. One, pot is by far the most widely used illicit drug among the US population, with nearly one out of two Americans admitting having tried it.12 Two, marijuana is the most readily detectable illicit drug in toxicological tests. |
http://norml.org/index.cfm?Group_ID=7459&wtm_format=print |
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suneV
Joined: 10 Jan 2008
Location: At the Flop
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| Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 3:00 pm Post subject: |
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| endo wrote: |
| suneV wrote: |
| 4 months left wrote: |
| Captain Corea wrote: |
But... ut, I thought that dugs didn't harm you?? Isn't that whatmany on this board have tried to put across?? |
What are dugs and whatmany...what drugs are you on now? I'm not a spelling nazi, just tired of your continued uniformed stupidity. Do some research about weed and then you'll stop posting that DUGS are bad. Do you have a 3rd grade reading level and can you use a search function?? Yes coke, herion, alcohol and cigarettes are bad dugs, weed isn't, like you keep posting on every thread.
Too bad he died but what is really sad is that I flipped on Good Morning America and it was the lead story. What a sad statement about society when the possible overdose/suicide of an actor is the main story when the world economy is crashing. |
Weed is as dangerous as tobacco and alchohol, easilly. |
Provide me with one, just one source thatr directly ties weed to dead |
Here's a little.
Effects on the Heart
Within a few minutes after smoking marijuana, the heart begins beating more rapidly and the blood pressure drops. Marijuana can cause the heart beat to increase by 20 to 50 beats per minute, and can increase even more if other drugs are used at the same time.
Because of the lower blood pressure and higher heart rate, researchers found that users' risk for a heart attack is four times higher within the first hour after smoking marijuana.
Effects on the Lungs
Smoking marijuana, even infrequently, can cause burning and stinging of the mouth and throat, and cause heavy coughing. Scientists have found that regular marijuana smokers can experience the same respiratory problems as tobacco smokers do, including:
Daily cough and phlegm production
More frequent acute chest illnesses
Increased risk of lung infections
Obstructed airways
Marijuana contains more carcinogenic hydrocarbons than tobacco smoke and because marijuana smokers usually inhale deeper and hold the smoke in their lungs longer than tobacco smokers, their lungs are exposed to those carcinogenic properties longer.
One study found that marijuana smokers were three times more likely to develop cancer of the head or neck than non-smokers. Many researchers believe than smoking marijuana is overall more harmful to the lungs than smoking tobacco.
Other Health Effects
Research indicates that THC impairs the body's immune system from fighting disease, which can cause a wide variety of health problems. One study found that marijuana actually inhibited the disease-preventing actions of key immune cells. Another study found that THC increased the risk of developing bacterial infections and tumors. |
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endo
Joined: 14 Mar 2004
Location: Seoul...my home
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| Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 7:11 pm Post subject: |
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| suneV wrote: |
Here's a little.
Effects on the Heart
Within a few minutes after smoking marijuana, the heart begins beating more rapidly and the blood pressure drops. Marijuana can cause the heart beat to increase by 20 to 50 beats per minute, and can increase even more if other drugs are used at the same time.
Because of the lower blood pressure and higher heart rate, researchers found that users' risk for a heart attack is four times higher within the first hour after smoking marijuana. |
So does running. She would criminalize running now? 
Or how about sex, a scary movie, walking up stairs, ect...
| suneV wrote: |
Effects on the Lungs
Smoking marijuana, even infrequently, can cause burning and stinging of the mouth and throat, and cause heavy coughing. Scientists have found that regular marijuana smokers can experience the same respiratory problems as tobacco smokers do, including:
Daily cough and phlegm production
More frequent acute chest illnesses
Increased risk of lung infections
Obstructed airways
Marijuana contains more carcinogenic hydrocarbons than tobacco smoke and because marijuana smokers usually inhale deeper and hold the smoke in their lungs longer than tobacco smokers, their lungs are exposed to those carcinogenic properties longer.
One study found that marijuana smokers were three times more likely to develop cancer of the head or neck than non-smokers. Many researchers believe than smoking marijuana is overall more harmful to the lungs than smoking tobacco. |
How many joints do you have to smoke to equal that of a ciggarette?
Anyways, if you're really worried, just purchase a vaporizor.
http://www.thevolcanovaporizer.com/index.php
| Quote: |
| The Volcano Vaporizer is a revolutionary system that releases the active ingredients from herbs through hot air vaporization. Vaporizers gently heats material just enough to release the active ingredients without combustion. Get all the flavor and active ingredients in a clean vapor without the tar and other toxins found in smoke. |
Problem solved!
| suneV wrote: |
Other Health Effects
Research indicates that THC impairs the body's immune system from fighting disease, which can cause a wide variety of health problems. One study found that marijuana actually inhibited the disease-preventing actions of key immune cells. Another study found that THC increased the risk of developing bacterial infections and tumors. |
Interesting, that's the first I heard about it. But really man, one study is hardly merited as proven fact.
I can bring you countless other studies which show all the positive effects of smoking cannabis.
I think most people who smoke herb know that it doesn't come with negative side effects.
By why are you singling weed smokers? Jesus Christ, more people die from Aspirin overdoses each year.
You can't OD on weed!
And to all those people found with traces of marijuana in their system during automobile crashes:
(a) what other substances were in their system?
(b) since marijuana stays in your system for around 30 day, what evidence do they have that the drivers were smoking weed prior to driving?
(c) were there other factors involved (lack of sleep, bad road conditions) which may have caused the accident?
Too many damn questions dude!
Again weed isn't harmless, but it is a hell of a lot safer than other legal substances out there. So why you gotta pick on WEED???!!!
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