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huffdaddy
Joined: 25 Nov 2005
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 Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 5:48 am Post subject: |
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| chris_J2 wrote: |
I have nothing against mainstream Muslims, prepared to accept Western values, but many radical maddrassas are preaching incompatible values such as:
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| ...students are taught to refute Western ideologies�capitalism, individualism, freedom, feminism, socialism, democracy, human rights�in lessons on combating heresy and dangers to Muslim thought and identity. |
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I won't speak for Ya-Ta, but personally, I've never argued that countries can't be selective about who they let immigrant. I do believe that barring people merely because of their religion is ridiculous. The US model has shown that Muslims can be successfully integrated into a Western society (at least as much as any immigrant group can be). I'll agree that letting in radicals who preach hate and want to blow things up is a bad idea. But let's put the blame on who deserves it. Not an entire religion, no matter how much more convenient that may be. |
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chris_J2
Joined: 17 Apr 2006
Location: From Brisbane, Au.
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| Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 6:04 am Post subject: Islamic Riots |
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Huffdaddy: I tend to agree with you. 'Bigverne', 'the peel' et al, are too quick too condemn all Muslims. Many of them DO have compatible values, and are decent human beings.
And I think Ya Ta Boy meant 'Koran', not Korean? |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 6:04 am Post subject: |
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I have no trouble with that, Mr. daddy. Back in the heyday of the US letting in a million a year, the officials at Ellis Island strained the crowds for anarchists (early version of libertarians) and barred them. A reasonable limitation. Too bad it can't be retroactive, but that's another issue.
In the early/mid 60's the US had an undigested minority who were tired of waiting for the door to open the rest of the way. The solution was to open the door out of the ghettos and into mainstream society. The cities stopped burning.  Maybe Europe ought to take a look at some of those programs.  |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 6:27 am Post subject: Re: Islamic Riots |
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| chris_J2 wrote: |
OTOH
Always right click on a suspicious hyperlink, then click 'properties', to view the full website address. |
Thanks for the tip. I will say that, before I looked at the site, I didn't regard myself as having any reason to think it suspicious. |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 7:27 am Post subject: |
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For OTOH.
Warning!! This post is NSFW.
| huffdaddy wrote: |
| thepeel wrote: |
So, you are comparing the struggle for maintained secularism (to the extent it even now exists) to NAMBLA? Really? |
I suspect that if any Muslims were asking for pedophilia to be legalized, you'd have your panties in a major knot. |
Pedophilia is a part of islam.
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The thought of an old man becoming aroused by a child is one of the most disturbing thoughts that makes us cringe as it reminds us of pedophilia and the most despicable people. It is difficult to accept that the Holy Prophet married Aisha when she was 6-years-old and consummated his marriage with her when she was 9. He was then, 54 years old.
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http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/sina/ayesha.htm
And is openly practiced in the muslim world:
If anybody tried to make child rape legal, I would aggressively and maybe even violently protest. Your counter arguments make fully no sense anymore.
However, if we are to "tolerate" and "respect" islam, as it seems so many of you want to do, then we have to tolerate and respect the desire of muslim men to take child brides. Just like their profit did. |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 7:33 am Post subject: |
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| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
| Europeans, I have a question. We Americans have the term 'red neck bigots' to refer to a certain segment of our society that is, shall we say, uncomfortable, with the idea of equality of people of a different hue, religion, whatnot. What is the European equivalent term? |
Well, yata only seems able to name call.
Either way, I'm all for "equality". As in, individual rights. I'm not trying to ban anything, oppress anyone and I've never been violent for a religious reason. You can draw all the pictures of Sam Harris you want. You can make little cartoons about me. You can insult me till the cows come home and I will never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever try and use the powers of government to stop you. You might want to ask yourself if maybe you've picked the wrong target to vent your life-long frustrations out on. The side of individual rights, secularism and peace is hardly rednecked.
Hands up, all the rednecks who support abortion, gay marriage, gay adoption, anti-war positions always and the like. Anybody?
Imagine if instead of 12 million Mexicans there were 12 million Algerians. I'm sure nothing at all would change. |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 7:38 am Post subject: Re: Islamic Riots |
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| chris_J2 wrote: |
Huffdaddy: I tend to agree with you. 'Bigverne', 'the peel' et al, are too quick too condemn all Muslims. Many of them DO have compatible values, and are decent human beings.
And I think Ya Ta Boy meant 'Koran', not Korean? |
I don't condemn "all" anybody. If you are a muslim in the way that I am a christian (born in it but don't believe) then I have no problem with you. If you are a muslim who actually thinks the koran is totally and absolutely true, then yes, you should not be permitted to settle in the West. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 7:38 am Post subject: |
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For OTOH.
Warning!! This post is NSFW.
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Yeah yeah yeah. I'm an uptight old fogey about netiquette.
But I don't think it takes a helluva lot of conjecture to imagine that someone surfing at a school full of nosy co-workers would not appreciate having a pro-pedophilia website come up unannounced. |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 7:46 am Post subject: |
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| On the other hand wrote: |
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For OTOH.
Warning!! This post is NSFW.
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Yeah yeah yeah. I'm an uptight old fogey about netiquette.
But I don't think it takes a helluva lot of conjecture to imagine that someone surfing at a school full of nosy co-workers would not appreciate having a pro-pedophilia website come up unannounced. |
I was being serious! Not mocking. |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 7:46 am Post subject: |
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| huffdaddy wrote: |
| chris_J2 wrote: |
I have nothing against mainstream Muslims, prepared to accept Western values, but many radical maddrassas are preaching incompatible values such as:
| Quote: |
| ...students are taught to refute Western ideologies�capitalism, individualism, freedom, feminism, socialism, democracy, human rights�in lessons on combating heresy and dangers to Muslim thought and identity. |
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I won't speak for Ya-Ta, but personally, I've never argued that countries can't be selective about who they let immigrant. I do believe that barring people merely because of their religion is ridiculous. The US model has shown that Muslims can be successfully integrated into a Western society (at least as much as any immigrant group can be). I'll agree that letting in radicals who preach hate and want to blow things up is a bad idea. But let's put the blame on who deserves it. Not an entire religion, no matter how much more convenient that may be. |
Don't be smug. You have a bomb brewing.
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he study also found pockets of sympathy for Islamic extremism, especially among younger people. Muslims between the ages of 18 and 29 express significantly greater acceptance than older people of suicide bombings in some cases. |
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2007-05-22-poll-muslim-americans_N.htm
Given that it is your country that seems hell bent on antagonizing them into perpetual war I'd say that the times, they are a changin. |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 7:59 am Post subject: |
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| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
| ...anarchists... |
Ahhh. I figured you out.
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 3:10 pm Post subject: |
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| And I think Ya Ta Boy meant 'Koran', not Korean? |
Urm...yeah. 'Koran', not 'Korean'.
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Ahhh. I figured you out.
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 The question now is: Just how much did you enjoy looking for that picture?
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| If you are a muslim in the way that I am a christian |
In other words, the strength of your committment to civil liberties extends only as far as someone agreeing with you. If they disagree, then their right to freedom of conscience stops. I just can't agree with that. I have more faith in Western values than that. |
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stevieg4ever
Joined: 11 Feb 2006
Location: London, England
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| Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 6:34 pm Post subject: |
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the problem is with Muslims and not with Europe's integration of immigrants. How comes people from Indian and Chinese communities and other backgrounds have such a high standard of living, in many cases, better than the host populace? In part, it must be down to the fact that they a) accept British values, b) work hard without complaining, c) are not dictated to by a religion of hate.
The UKs policy has always been very simple and straight forward: if you accept and respect UK values then come to the UK. But this doesnt seem to be the case with Muslims, wherever they go they have to make their own laws, their own rules and their own society. This is why they have so many problems integrating and, invariably, why they are so alienated from western society and core western values.
But the idea -albeit expressed earlier on in this thread- that Muslims will become the majority and that Europe will surrender in its wake is laughable. It will never, ever happen. They are too destitute, dont have enough collective income, political advocacy or even literacy amongst them to be anything more than a laughing stock more than what they are now.
Part of the reason why they cant integrate so well is that they cant get ahead in society. Invariably their social deprivation increases and they become more and more contingent on the absract notions and principles set forth in their beloved 'religion of peace'. Therefore becoming further disenfranchised from mainstream society. How people for one second think they will take control of Parliament, the military etc and run the country I have no idea.
I make this point time and time again. Wherever there are Muslims en masse their is a trial of chaos and destruction. I just got back from Malaysia and its exactly the same there. a Chinese taxi driver was adamant that if the economy were left to Malayans, Chinese and Indians then Malaysia would be a heck of a lot better then they are now. But Muslims have crippled the national morale and the economy and now they are much worse off as a nation. Its the same the world over. |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 7:01 pm Post subject: |
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| The problem is with Muslims and not with Europe's integration of immigrants. How comes people from Indian and Chinese communities and other backgrounds have such a high standard of living, in many cases, better than the host populace? In part, it must be down to the fact that they a) accept British values, b) work hard without complaining, c) are not dictated to by a religion of hate. |
Yes. Exactly. Show me a Chinese dude who wants to behead a Chinese soldier for joining the SAF.
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But the idea -albeit expressed earlier on in this thread- that Muslims will become the majority and that Europe will surrender in its wake is laughable. It will never, ever happen. They are too destitute, dont have enough collective income, political advocacy or even literacy amongst them to be anything more than a laughing stock more than what they are now. |
I disagree. Unless Europe grows some balls and starts deporting, some nations will submit.
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I make this point time and time again. Wherever there are Muslims en masse their is a trial of chaos and destruction. |
Yes. This is an indisputable fact.
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I just got back from Malaysia and its exactly the same there. a Chinese taxi driver was adamant that if the economy were left to Malayans, Chinese and Indians then Malaysia would be a heck of a lot better then they are now. |
You mean Malay's, but yes, I agree. It is the same in Indonesia. The Chinese trade, the muslims loiter and pray. There has been the beginnings of mass racial (which means religious) violence in Malaysia. The Indians aren't going to take dhimnitude anymore and the Chinese are quite sick of the state-preferences given to Malays. The education minister (a Malay) stood up in Parliament with his "traditional sword" and threatened to make the streets run with Chinese blood if the dominance of islam/Malay's were to be challenged. The education minster.
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But Muslims have crippled the national morale and the economy and now they are much worse off as a nation. Its the same the world over. |
Yes, it is. |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 8:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
| In other words, the strength of your committment to civil liberties extends only as far as someone agreeing with you. |
1) There is no "civil liberty" to immigrate to a nation.
2) I am a civil libertarian. Remember? Your obsession? Free speech is an absolute right for people like me.
3) It is not libertarian secularists who are trying to use the state to limit "acceptable speech". It is the white-guilt left and the fanatical religious right. Maybe you are projecting.
I find it very interesting that leftists in the West are now the primary defenders of right-wing religious nuts. Ain't that a neat turn of events! |
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