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mastap
Joined: 10 Apr 2007
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 Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2008 4:51 pm Post subject: |
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| got options in kor if u vegetarian |
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sargx
Joined: 29 Nov 2007
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| Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2008 4:57 pm Post subject: |
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I'm at the opposite end of the spectrum. I don't eat vegetables. If I go into someone's house that doesn't cook meat or fish. I'll eat only rice. If they don't have rice, I'll only drink water. For me to eat vegetables is the same as a vegan eating a steak.
So if I go to a vegetarian's house for a dinner party, they will usually make me something with fish/egg/meat out of hospitality. |
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littlelisa
Joined: 12 Jun 2007
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2008 6:17 pm Post subject: |
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| I would make you something with egg, sure. Otherwise, I'd invite you out to a restaurant. |
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Darashii
Joined: 08 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2008 7:31 pm Post subject: |
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| But...rice is a grass and so a vegetable. |
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Rteacher
Joined: 23 May 2005
Location: Western MA, USA
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| Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 4:02 am Post subject: |
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Don't forget that nonvegetarians are welcome to attend Seoul Vegetarian club gatherings (as long as they don't eat any meat or fish while joining us for lunch or dinner at restaurants or picnics or gatherings at members' homes ...)
"Kermo" is the president, and the group (aside from threads posted here) can be found on facebook and also at this website:
http://seoulveggieclub.wordpress.com/
The group meets this Sunday for lunch (1pm) at Taj Palace restaurant in Itaewon, and the next gathering will be a "potluck" vegetarian dinner at a member's place, Saturday, February 16.
The February 16 event will be "free" but all donations collected will be given to an animal-rescue group facing a deadline at the end of February.
http://forums.eslcafe.com/korea/viewtopic.php?t=101200&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=45
Here's a list of vegetarian and vegetarian-friendly places throughout Korea: http://www.vegetariankorea.org/category/gyeongsangbuk-do |
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The Bobster
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 12:29 am Post subject: |
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| littlelisa wrote: |
| That's why your argument doesn't work. We DO go out of our way to serve our friends things we like (or, I do anyway, sounds like Kermo does as well). |
Actually, that IS precisely my argument : that you will only serve your friends food that you like and approve of. That's what I've been saying all along.
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| You're twisting the arguments to find arrogance where there is none. I don't decide what they OUGHT to eat at all. |
No, you decide what they are ABLE to eat when they come to your house - because it is important to you that people conform to your values while under your roof.
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| I assume that I have to adapt when I go to others' homes. If most vegetarians are arrogant this way, then so are most meat eaters. |
If you come to MY I will fix you what you enjoy eating, but you will have to watch me eat what I enjoy eating. Anything less would be rude to one of us or the other, and I was brought up to show the best sort of courtesy to people when they enter my home. And to hope for the same courtesy when invited over to their house.
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| Is a Jew arrogant for wanting to keep their kitchen Kosher? |
Is a vegetarian arrogant for comparing themselves to a persecuted minority with a sincerely-held faith and traditions that go back thousands of years, when in fact they are NOT persecuted, and when in fact their friends go to great lengths to be kind and considerate toward their lifestyle, which they chose freely by themselves?
Please LL, let's put the whole jewish thing to rest - you haven't earned the right to compare yourself in this way. |
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Rteacher
Joined: 23 May 2005
Location: Western MA, USA
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| Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 3:52 am Post subject: |
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Aside from the fact that it's practically torture to watch some people devouring slabs of meat piled before them, vegetarian Christians have also been a persecuted minority since Biblical times.
... It also becomes clear when one studies the early history
of the church that the founding fathers espoused the vegetarian
ideal. You can study their lives: Tertullian, Pliny, Origen,
St. John Chrysostom, the list goes on and on. Parenthetically,
that these early Church fathers were avowed vegetarians makes a
large statement as to what we may have read in the Bible before
it was worked on at the various Ecumenical councils...
It was not until the time of Emperor Constantine (Fourth
Century) that vegetarian Christians had to practice
underground--this was because Constantine was a meat-eater. He
was also a maniac, and Church history books abound with the
stories of how he would pour molten lead down the throats of
Christian vegetarians for their chosen diet. Incidentally, he
also killed his wife by setting her in a vat of boiling water.
Scriptural knowledge is simple for the simple--but it is
difficult for the twisted. The Bible clearly says "Thou shalt
not kill" (Exodus 20:13). It could not be stated more simply.
The exact Hebrew is "lo tirtzach", which accurately
translates: "thou shalt not kill."
http://www.textfiles.com/occult/CHRISTIAN/ymtitb.txt |
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Darashii
Joined: 08 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 4:01 am Post subject: |
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| The Bobster wrote: |
| littlelisa wrote: |
| That's why your argument doesn't work. We DO go out of our way to serve our friends things we like (or, I do anyway, sounds like Kermo does as well). |
Actually, that IS precisely my argument : that you will only serve your friends food that you like and approve of. That's what I've been saying all along. |
I read that as "we all like", not just "we vegetarians", but I'm pretty sure you're so convinced of moral vegetarians' contempt for your meat-eating that that is naturally how you read it. 
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| No, you decide what they are ABLE to eat when they come to your house - because it is important to you that people conform to your values while under your roof. |
Um...no... because there's no place in this friggin world where you can choose from every edible thing imaginable. No home, no restaurant, no farmer's market.
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| If you come to MY I will fix you what you enjoy eating, but you will have to watch me eat what I enjoy eating. |
...which is exactly what happens when you go to a vegetarian's house, because Bobster likes vegetables.
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| Is a vegetarian arrogant for comparing themselves to a persecuted minority with a sincerely-held faith and traditions that go back thousands of years, when in fact they are NOT persecuted, and when in fact their friends go to great lengths to be kind and considerate toward their lifestyle, which they chose freely by themselves? |
Nope, because I know Jews who are neither persecuted nor kosher and lotsa vegetarians who'd DIE before ingesting animal products.
Go figure.
Why does any one person have to "earn" the right to use a metaphor?  This argument for arrogance is getting...no, remaining silly.
And yes, Christians, meateaters the lot of 'em, are indeed HIGH up there on the persecuted list. |
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littlelisa
Joined: 12 Jun 2007
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 6:21 am Post subject: |
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| Darashii wrote: |
| The Bobster wrote: |
| littlelisa wrote: |
| That's why your argument doesn't work. We DO go out of our way to serve our friends things we like (or, I do anyway, sounds like Kermo does as well). |
Actually, that IS precisely my argument : that you will only serve your friends food that you like and approve of. That's what I've been saying all along. |
I read that as "we all like", not just "we vegetarians", but I'm pretty sure you're so convinced of moral vegetarians' contempt for your meat-eating that that is naturally how you read it. |
Oops. I meant they, not we. 
Yeah, I mean food that my friends like. Food that they like that just happens to be vegetarian. The point I made about making squash cause a friend likes it even though I don't was supposed to reinforce that point.
As for earning the right to make a comparison with Judaism...
My family is Jewish, so are many of my friends. Jews in Montreal, at least the ones I know are not persecuted for being Jewish.
Friends who are not Jewish also go to great lengths to be kind and considerate towards their lifestyle.
When is a religion forced upon anyone? It's a decision that someone makes, whether they are Jewish/identify with Judaism or not. Even if you grow up with a religion, you come to your own conclusion/decision about it at some point as you grow up and question things. Then you either accept it or not, or make different choices within the same religion, sometimes. Personally, I do not identify as Jewish, for example, though my family raised me as a Jew. And even Jews make a choice about what traditions they follow or not. Our family does not keep kosher, exactly, but my mom never mixes milk and meat at home (though she has no issue with it at restaurants). Also, there is no pork at home, and seafood only rarely.
My grandmother on my dad's side keeps 4 sets of dishes, though, which my immediate family has chosen not to follow. That's her choice. She chooses to only have Kosher things in the house. During Passover, she even buys Kosher for Passover salt. She gets rid of all the bread in the house. My parents choose to just stuff the hametz downstairs and ask people not to eat it. My parents have two neighbours. On one side is a Rabbi and his wife who keep a kosher kitchen, the other is a family who are also Jewish, but will occasionally order a pepperoni pizza.
Poor persecuted Jews who have NO CHOICE but to be Kosher? Come on.
Very few people follow all the rules and traditions. Most people choose which ones are important to them. So it's a choice they make about what they want in their house. So it's a reasonable analogy. |
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kermo
Joined: 01 Sep 2004
Location: Eating eggs, with a comb, out of a shoe.
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| Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 7:57 am Post subject: |
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| The Bobster wrote: |
| littlelisa wrote: |
| That's why your argument doesn't work. We DO go out of our way to serve our friends things we like (or, I do anyway, sounds like Kermo does as well). |
Actually, that IS precisely my argument : that you will only serve your friends food that you like and approve of. That's what I've been saying all along.
| Quote: |
| You're twisting the arguments to find arrogance where there is none. I don't decide what they OUGHT to eat at all. |
No, you decide what they are ABLE to eat when they come to your house - because it is important to you that people conform to your values while under your roof.
| Quote: |
| I assume that I have to adapt when I go to others' homes. If most vegetarians are arrogant this way, then so are most meat eaters. |
If you come to MY I will fix you what you enjoy eating, but you will have to watch me eat what I enjoy eating. Anything less would be rude to one of us or the other, and I was brought up to show the best sort of courtesy to people when they enter my home. And to hope for the same courtesy when invited over to their house.
| Quote: |
| Is a Jew arrogant for wanting to keep their kitchen Kosher? |
Is a vegetarian arrogant for comparing themselves to a persecuted minority with a sincerely-held faith and traditions that go back thousands of years, when in fact they are NOT persecuted, and when in fact their friends go to great lengths to be kind and considerate toward their lifestyle, which they chose freely by themselves?
Please LL, let's put the whole jewish thing to rest - you haven't earned the right to compare yourself in this way. |
Earned the right? That's unnecessarily hostile. How would one go about earning that right anyway? SOME Jews keep their kitchens kosher because they believe it's the right thing to do. Is that arrogant?
I don't know. I don't think this conversation is getting anywhere. Bobster, you're getting more and more offensive, even as numerous people are patiently proving you wrong. I serve my friends the kind of food they like. I phone them beforehand and ask them what they'd like to have. I'll shop and work all day to make delicious meals. I (usually) omit a certain ingredient, but it doesn't make the food any less delicious. My friends support my decision not to eat meat because they understand, even respect my beliefs.
If you don't believe that my friends are happy and my motivations are honourable, that's ok. I'm done trying to justify myself.
p.s. Are you honestly saying that as a vegetarian, my friends are always kind and considerate to me? I am never yelled at and always accommodated? I'm never preached at for practising what I believe in? Good grief. |
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The Bobster
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 9:51 am Post subject: |
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| kermo wrote: |
| That's unnecessarily hostile. |
I'm very sorry. I intend nothing like hostility, and after reading it again I still don't think it is. Vegetarianism is not a religion, and even those who are saying that it is an act of politics seem to be asking to be accomodated as if on a religious basis. That has yet to be explained to me.
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| I don't think this conversation is getting anywhere. Bobster, you're getting more and more offensive, even as numerous people are patiently proving you wrong. |
No one has yet addressed the nonrecipricality issue. You are treating people who come to your home with less courtesy than they treat you. It's that simple, and after all these pages no one has come close to that.
Again, I really am truly sorry to have offended anyone. Not intended, and I sort of thought we could all listen to each other and be heard, but I suspect I first started giving offense when I used the word "arrogant" pages and pages ago. Sorry, but that's the way I see it, and I've explained why.
I really do think I have been polite here, and I'll continue to make the best attempt at that I know how.
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| I am never yelled at and always accommodated? I'm never preached at for practising what I believe in? Good grief. |
Someone is putting words in mouths they didn't come out of. The Bobster never said any such thing - I said that your friends are polite to you and go to some effort to be kind and considerate towards you.
I like vegetarians as well as I like all my friends. Much like religion, it does seem to be a topic that is pretty near impossible to talk about in a social way without ruffling feathers. There are things people don't want to hear ... and you know, it may not seem so, but I'm doing you a favor by letting you know some things that a lot of us are thinking even though we are usually too polite to bring it up in front of you.
For instance, why do vegetarians call themselves "vegetarians," as if it were a deep-seated core part of their identity, like being Canadian or being a teacher or being a woman? For most people, what they choose to eat is just one of many things we do that define us.
My friend keith doesn't like eggs - no allergies or anything, he just doesn't like them - he doesn't go around saying, "I'm a non-ovumist," or something equally descriptive and equally irrelevant to most of the important things in his relationships with people. All he says is, "I don't like to eat eggs." No one forces him to eat eggs, but he'll cook them for you if you come over. No big deal. He just won't eat them, and he'll eat something else instead.
I'll eat anything, but I don't go around proudly proclaiming myself to be an omnivore - though lately I've been giving it some thought. I mean, why not? (Hey, I could start a club! Sure ... people get together in the evening and eat any damn thing they want, and why not start a club on that basis and nothing more?)
Not so with vegetarians - and vegans seems to be even more fixated on this whole identity question. Where does this come from, that just ONE single aspect of your life gets elevated to a place of such central importance that has a profound effect on how you interact with people and how they interact with you? How does it become so important that you are able to feel no qualms about being less courteous to your friends than they are to you?
And there is sense one gets from many vegetarians that they feel themselves to be a persecuted minority, and personally, I just don't see it. There is NO ONE telling vegetarians that they cannot be vegetarians, but there are many vegetarians who would dearly wish to see everyone in the world just like them, because they don't like living in a world where other people can eat what they like. And they often have what they feel are very good reasons for this stuff, which they are ready to tell you about whenever the opportunity comes around.
I have no problem personally with anyone on this subject - live your lives as you wish, honestly - and I apologize again if something I said was offensive. |
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Insidejohnmalkovich
Joined: 11 Jan 2008
Location: Pusan
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| Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 2:10 pm Post subject: |
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| More raving from the pro-abortion, anti-fur nutcases. |
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littlelisa
Joined: 12 Jun 2007
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 5:21 pm Post subject: |
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| The Bobster wrote: |
| kermo wrote: |
| That's unnecessarily hostile. |
I'm very sorry. I intend nothing like hostility, and after reading it again I still don't think it is. Vegetarianism is not a religion, and even those who are saying that it is an act of politics seem to be asking to be accomodated as if on a religious basis. That has yet to be explained to me. |
Did you miss the part where I explained that a Jew keeping Kosher is a choice they make? You missed that whole post above this one? Keeping Kosher is not a religion. Being Vegetarian is not a religion either. Both are a choice, for whatever reasons (and you can't just claim religious reasons, because as I explained, even religious Jews pick and choose among traditions, except for a very few. Even for Jews, keeping Kosher is still a choice they make about what they eat).
| Quote: |
| Quote: |
| I don't think this conversation is getting anywhere. Bobster, you're getting more and more offensive, even as numerous people are patiently proving you wrong. |
No one has yet addressed the nonrecipricality issue. You are treating people who come to your home with less courtesy than they treat you. It's that simple, and after all these pages no one has come close to that. |
Yes they have. They said it's not an even comparison, because meat-eaters LIKE vegetables, but vegetarians don't like/eat meat ever. There is recipricality; each makes the other what they like. What they like just doesn't always have to have meat in it, since the meat-eater usually likes and eats things without meat in them on a fairly regular basis anyway.
Let's say you have two people. Person A really likes three things: Things 1, 2 and 3. Person B likes thing 2 and sort of likes thing 3, but can't stand even the smell of thing 1. So Person A invites Person B over and they eat Thing 2. Then Person B invites Person A over and they have Thing 3. Funny how that can work! They both eat something they like. They both offer the person something THEY like. But Person B doesn't have to cook thing 1 to prove someone's ridiculous assertion.
| Quote: |
Again, I really am truly sorry to have offended anyone. Not intended, and I sort of thought we could all listen to each other and be heard, but I suspect I first started giving offense when I used the word "arrogant" pages and pages ago. Sorry, but that's the way I see it, and I've explained why.
I really do think I have been polite here, and I'll continue to make the best attempt at that I know how. |
I think it's more than just being polite. You've got to be a bit more open-minded in this debate. Darashii mentioned that you were ignoring people's actual intentions and hearing only what you wanted to hear from what we were saying, rather than what we actually are. All those things you said were never addressed actually were. Go read it again, you'll see.
| Quote: |
For instance, why do vegetarians call themselves "vegetarians," as if it were a deep-seated core part of their identity, like being Canadian or being a teacher or being a woman? For most people, what they choose to eat is just one of many things we do that define us.
My friend keith doesn't like eggs - no allergies or anything, he just doesn't like them - he doesn't go around saying, "I'm a non-ovumist," or something equally descriptive and equally irrelevant to most of the important things in his relationships with people. All he says is, "I don't like to eat eggs." No one forces him to eat eggs, but he'll cook them for you if you come over. No big deal. He just won't eat them, and he'll eat something else instead.
I'll eat anything, but I don't go around proudly proclaiming myself to be an omnivore - though lately I've been giving it some thought. I mean, why not? (Hey, I could start a club! Sure ... people get together in the evening and eat any damn thing they want, and why not start a club on that basis and nothing more?)
Not so with vegetarians - and vegans seems to be even more fixated on this whole identity question. Where does this come from, that just ONE single aspect of your life gets elevated to a place of such central importance that has a profound effect on how you interact with people and how they interact with you? How does it become so important that you are able to feel no qualms about being less courteous to your friends than they are to you?
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You're right. It's so much simpler if I just say, "Oh, I don't eat meat or fish, and don't eat any seafood either". Saying "I'm vegetarian" does the same thing, and is shorter to say. That's all. Especially for Vegans. What, are they supposed to make a whole list?
Actually, I often do just say I don't eat meat. And then, even with people who've known me for a while, there will often be someone who didn't know I didn't eat meat. You don't have to be intrusive about it.
Anyway, why don't you say you're an omnivore? You don't have to. That's assumed. It's never an issue.
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| And there is sense one gets from many vegetarians that they feel themselves to be a persecuted minority, and personally, I just don't see it. There is NO ONE telling vegetarians that they cannot be vegetarians, but there are many vegetarians who would dearly wish to see everyone in the world just like them, because they don't like living in a world where other people can eat what they like. And they often have what they feel are very good reasons for this stuff, which they are ready to tell you about whenever the opportunity comes around. |
Sigh. I am not a persecuted minority, and I don't feel that way. I think you're reading into things a little too deeply, there. I don't dearly wish to see everyone in the word just like me. I already said I'm vegetarian because I don't like the taste of meat. Yes, I have a very good reason why I'm vegetarian, and tell people only when they ask, which happens to be fairly often. Again, I don't like the taste.
Who's putting words into others' mouths now, Bobster?
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| I have no problem personally with anyone on this subject - live your lives as you wish, honestly - and I apologize again if something I said was offensive. |
Same to you. I just wish you would hear what we're saying and not what you think we're saying. I'm done with this thread too. I'm also through justifying what I do.
Last edited by littlelisa on Sat Feb 02, 2008 5:31 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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the_beaver
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 5:27 pm Post subject: |
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| littlelisa wrote: |
| They said it's not an even comparison, because meat-eaters LIKE vegetables, but vegetarians don't like/eat meat ever. |
My ass.
I tolerate vegetables sometimes but I don't like them. |
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littlelisa
Joined: 12 Jun 2007
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 5:40 pm Post subject: |
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| the_beaver wrote: |
| littlelisa wrote: |
| They said it's not an even comparison, because meat-eaters LIKE vegetables, but vegetarians don't like/eat meat ever. |
My ass.
I tolerate vegetables sometimes but I don't like them. |
Well, if you don't, most meat-eaters do. At least you're at the level of tolerability with them.
I suspect that we wouldn't be good dinner party hosts for each other, Beaver. 
We'd have to stick to pasta or something.
But see, if we really only like things that the other doesn't, I think a restaurant would be better than a dinner party. And in such a case, I don't expect to be accommodated any more than they would expect me to accommodate them. I've already said that too. |
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