|
Korean Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Teachers from Around the World!"
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
|
 Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 1:55 am Post subject: |
 |
|
| On the other hand wrote: |
| thepeel wrote: |
| On the other hand wrote: |
| Quote: |
| And huffnpuff, I'm in favour of 'values immigration' that would as easily reject a Mississippi Baptist as it would a Pakistani muslim. If you think a poorly written and hate filled old book is the inerrant word of god, go somewhere else. |
Well, you could probably add Korean Confucians, ultramontagne Catholics, and Hindus with a hard-on for the BJP mobs to that list. |
Really? I sure don't see the problems in Korea Town, Cupertino or Boston that we see in Malmo or Marseille.
This multiculturalism thing (the reality, not Canadian policy) seems to work quite well with one big exception. |
Wel, I don't know what percentage of immigrants in Canada are Korean Confucians, but let's say that it was equal to the percentage of immigrants in France who were African and Middle Eastern Muslims. Korea Town might be flex its sociopolitical muscle a bit more. |
Man, you will do anything but acknowledge a very easily identified problem, eh?
When we the last time you were in Vancouver? Since the 80's? It is majority Chinese/East Asian now. They are flexing their musclies and it is still the "left coast". No problem, less a Sikh/Indian gang problem.
And besides this, what if they did? What if the Koreans did? I lived in Korea for a number of years and was totally left alone (with few exceptions). Would they make kimchi on the streets? What would they do?
The content matters OTOH.
Last edited by thepeel on Sun Feb 03, 2008 2:01 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
|
| Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 1:59 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| The irony is that bigverne and peel claim to believe in protecting Western values, but they don't believe in them enough to practice them. |
An open door immigration policy to unassimilable, hostile third world immigrants is not a bedrock of 'Western values', and it never has been. The doctrine of multiculturalism is an invention of the 1960s, and as a policy only become popular in the 1980s. You are confusing multiculturalism and political correctness with Western values, when in fact there is no connection between the two. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
|
| Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 2:00 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| I wonder if any Chinese, Koreans or Japanese make demands like this? |
Well, I know that for awhile now, Hutterites in Alberta have had the right to get driver's licenses without being photographed, since having their picture taken apparently violates some religous taboo. The government tried to change the rules last year, but the Hutterites took it to court, and won.
Can't say I approve of that. If photo IDs serve a security function, then everybody should have to get them. And no one if forcing the Hutterites to drive cars anyway. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
|
| Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 2:03 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| It is majority Chinese/East Asian now. They are flexing their musclies and it is still the "left coast". |
Point taken. But do all those Chinese/East Asian people follow the same religion? Mississipi Baptists might be a better comparison. I think you'd find a lot of them flexing their muscle if they were migrating en masse to Vancouver, since they certainly seem to flex their muscles down in the states. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
|
| Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 2:04 am Post subject: |
|
|
Hutterites aren't from East Asia, aren't immigrants and we've developed a historical relationship with them. I disagree with their tax free status and the obvious inbreeding that goes on but they are such a small fraction of the population anyways and aren't doubling in population every 10 years in Canada as are muslims. They don't try to colonize Wetaskiwin.
There is only one group that can't leave well enough alone. One group dominated by evil old men and held in line by violence-prone young men. And that group is not the Koreans. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Leslie Cheswyck
Joined: 31 May 2003
Location: University of Western Chile
|
| Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 2:05 am Post subject: |
|
|
| How many Hutterites are flooding our shores? And how many Hutterites are keen on blowing up buses? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
|
| Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 2:06 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
And besides this, what if they did? What if the Koreans did? I lived in Korea for a number of years and was totally left alone (with few exceptions). Would they make kimchi on the streets? What would they do?
|
Well, if Korean Confucians were given their own schools, and pumped full of multicultural propaganda, they might get their kids to start doing "senior/junior" type social relations. That's one thing I could think of.
This may come as a surprise to you, but for a very long time I have not been a supporter of official multiculturalism. Not at all. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
|
| Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 2:07 am Post subject: |
|
|
The muslim immigration issue puts the left in a very uncomfortable situation.
They dislike talking about problems in non-white communities at all (and in Canada I'm quite sure to do so is effectively illegal or against a human right of some kind) but when you bring up all the problems that the muslims bring the left is forced to start the whole "well the Koreans are bad too" game. Which is on the one hand funny (because it is leftish ideas that the muslims keep destroying) and the other hand must cause quite a bit of schizoid feelings.
Is it really worth it? To throw out the baby with the bathwater? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
|
| Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 2:09 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Leslie Cheswyck wrote: |
| How many Hutterites are flooding our shores? And how many Hutterites are keen on blowing up buses? |
None and None.
OTOH, if that is the problem the Koreans bring than that is no problem at all. A happy walk in the park compared to what the UK is waking up to. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
|
| Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 2:15 am Post subject: |
|
|
The UK is starting to realize that this whole tolerating muslims thing has been a horrible, horrible mistake.
| Quote: |
Multiculturalism is breeding intolerance
It has taken a long time to happen, but at last an authoritative and senior establishment figure has pointed to the elephant in the room. Before the Bishop of Rochester's article yesterday in The Sunday Telegraph, the debate about immigration focused almost exclusively on who benefits financially. We have tiptoed around its effect on our society and culture. Even the somewhat belated recognition by ministers that newcomers should show a commitment to British values and demonstrate a knowledge of English tends to be couched in economic terms and ones favourable to the immigrants themselves - that they will get a job more easily and their lives will be enhanced if they are more integrated.
However, few politicians have been willing to do what Michael Nazir-Ali has done, which is to question the impact of a growing Muslim population upon the very fabric of the nation, turning it within half a century into a multi-faith and multicultural land.
The issue that Bishop Nazir-Ali raised has more to do with our failure to integrate Muslims because our political elites were in thrall to what he called "the novel philosophy of multiculturalism". One consequence was the ease with which extremists exploited an emphasis on separatism to recruit among the more impressionable young men in their communities.
Attempts have been made to impose an "Islamic" character in some cities by insisting on artificial amplification for the adhan, the call to prayer, and even to introduce some aspects of sharia to civil law. Sitting in the background, seemingly stalled for the time being, are plans to establish Europe's largest markaz - an Islamic prayer and meeting area able to accommodate at least 40,000 people - right beside the site for the 2012 London Olympics, where it would be a potent icon of how Britain has changed.
In truth, the bishop has simply articulated what many in the Government and in the race relations world have already come to realise (and which most of the rest of us understood years ago), and that is the baleful consequences of three decades of multiculturalism. Last year, even the Commission for Racial Equality, once a cheerleader for the concept, recanted with a report that depicted Britain as an unequal and segregated nation in danger of breaking up.
Like Bishop Nazir-Ali, it feared that extremism was being fostered by the retreat of different groups behind their ethnic walls. For many years, those who wanted Britain to be recognised as a multicultural society which needed to revise, or even jettison, five centuries of Protestant hegemony held centre stage. Anyone who questioned it had their reputations trashed. The multiculturalists even coined an insult - Islamophobia - to try to close down the debate. Some of them yesterday accused the bishop of "scaremongering".
But while multiculturalism began as a facet of Britain's characteristic toleration of other people's ways, religions, cuisines, languages and dress, it metamorphosed into a political creed that held that ethnic minority groups should be allowed to do what they like. It became a guiding principle of governance. When he became prime minister in 1997, Tony Blair urged the nation to embrace multiculturalism. Almost 10 years later, as he prepared to leave Downing Street, he was making speeches informing immigrants they had "a duty" to integrate with the mainstream of society. "Conform to it; or don't come here. We don't want the hate-mongers, whatever their race, religion or creed," he said.
But the "hate-mongers" were already here; and if they weren't they found getting here easy enough. There was a ready-made audience for their anti-western rhetoric among some sections of the Muslim community who had become estranged from the rest of the country - not just from the white Christian majority but from everyone else. So estranged that some were, and still are, prepared to kill others and themselves. When Mohammed Siddique Khan, the leader of the July 7 suicide bombers, spoke in his "martyr video" of "the injustices perpetrated against my people" he did not mean the folk among whom he grew up in Yorkshire.
As Bishop Nazir-Ali recognises, the religious diversity that can - and should - be easily accommodated in a liberal, democratic and (still) overwhelmingly Christian country has taken on a more malign aspect which politicians are belatedly seeking to address. Ministers are even trying to enlist the help of Muslim women in countering the extremists by sending them on training courses to give them the skills and confidence to confront fanatics. This may be a laudable aim but simply is not going to happen in many Muslim communities.
Inevitably, Bishop Nazir-Ali's comments have proven controversial, not least his observation that some parts of the country are no-go areas for non-Muslims. But this segregation has been apparent for many years and was officially acknowledged as long ago as 2001 after riots in some northern towns. The inquiry into their cause was appalled to find British people living "parallel lives", with some young people from ethnic minorities able to go through life exclusively in the company of their own kind.
The diminution of this country's commitment to Anglicanism mourned by the bishop was taking place even without the arrival of another proselytising faith as potent as Islam. However, there is a wider issue that affects everyone: it has to do with the sort of country in which we all want to live. Religious intolerance breeds political intolerance; and we are seeing the great legacies of an enlightened Christian tradition - individual liberty and freedom under the law - squandered because of a need to face down extremists who deride such concepts and who should have been confronted a long time ago. |
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2008/01/07/do0702.xml |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
|
| Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 2:17 am Post subject: |
|
|
| thepeel wrote: |
The muslim immigration issue puts the left in a very uncomfortable situation.
They dislike talking about problems in non-white communities at all (and in Canada I'm quite sure to do so is effectively illegal or against a human right of some kind) but when you bring up all the problems that the muslims bring the left is forced to start the whole "well the Koreans are bad too" game. Which is on the one hand funny (because it is leftish ideas that the muslims keep destroying) and the other hand must cause quite a bit of schizoid feelings.
Is it really worth it? To throw out the baby with the bathwater? |
Well, just so we're clear, I was specifically responding to your suggestion that we institute some sort of accross-the-board bannings of people whose values aren't like ours, and you mentioned Mississipi Baptists, along with Muslims. My only point is that I don't see how that sort of a system could ever be implemented in an effective way.
Immi official: Okay, so you're a Baptist from Mississipi?
Immigrant: Yes.
Immi official: So, uh, you have any connection with those people who were going around bombing abortion clinics a while back?
Immigrant: Ah, no.
Immi official: Glad to hear it. Oh and you know, Canada allows gay marriage. You all right with that?
Immigrant: Sure.
Immi official: You're not planning to get together with a bunch of other Baptists and lobby to have that changed, are you?
Immigrant: Oh no.
Immi offical: Well, those are all the questions I have for you. Welcome to Canada!
Last edited by On the other hand on Sun Feb 03, 2008 2:21 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
|
| Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 2:19 am Post subject: |
|
|
This made me chuckle...
| Quote: |
| One group dominated by evil old men and held in line by violence-prone young men. And that group is not the Koreans. |
Many denizens of the General Forum would probably take exception to that statement! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
|
| Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 2:24 am Post subject: |
|
|
The Netherlands has them watch a video of two men kissing and then makes them sign a pledge to uphold tolerance as the highest value. I'd expand on this and make it a good 5-7 years before citizenship and make associating with radical imams or equivalent grounds for automatic deportation. So would be spousal abuse. So would be attending a racist/radical mosque. So would surfing islamist hate sites. Let them do that crap in Lahore. To become a citizen they would have to demonstrate a committment to Canadian values. Show us you want to be part of a progressive country. If not, go home.
Also, just exclude crazy countries. There is no reason to let Saudi's move to Canada. Ditto for Pakistan, Sudan, Algeria, Somalia and some others. Let them move between their own self-made hell hole countries. Just exclude them. Final answer. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
|
| Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 2:33 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| There is no reason to let Saudi's move to Canada. Ditto for Pakistan, Sudan, Algeria, Somalia and some others. |
What about Ayaan Hirsi Ali? She's from Somalia, and I'll bet you dollars to donuts that she still surfs Islamic hate sites. I suppose you could introduce an exemption for people who claim that they disagree with radical Islam. But see my fictional immigration interview a few posts back for the limitations of that policy. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
chris_J2
Joined: 17 Apr 2006
Location: From Brisbane, Au.
|
| Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 3:13 am Post subject: Islam |
|
|
Have relations between Canada & Iran been normalised yet, since the murder of Zahra Kazemi?
| Quote: |
| Shahram Azam, a former military staff physician who left Iran and sought asylum in Canada in 2004, has stated that he examined Kazemi's body and observed evidence of rape and torture, including a skull fracture, broken nose, crushed toe, missing fingernails, broken fingers, and severe abdominal bruising. The Canadian government, as well as Kazemi's family and supporters, consider her death to be state-sanctioned murder. |
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zahra_Kazemi
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Iran
Yeah, I know 'Wiki' ain't perfect. But it's usually a good starting point. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
