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Czarjorge
Joined: 01 May 2007
Location: I now have the same moustache, and it is glorious.
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 Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 11:28 am Post subject: |
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Van, I would agree that far too often negotiations are replaced with a taser blast to someone who might have otherwise stood down with a few well placed words. That's really a training and usage issue, not a reason to banish tazers altogether. The number of people who might have been shot and killed, but were tazered and not killed, offsets the relatively low number of people who have been seriously harmed by tazer blasts.
Tazers are an improvement, but not the end of line in non-lethal tech. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 12:46 pm Post subject: |
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| VanIslander wrote: |
| Tasers are an escalation of force. |
Absolutely. And why do you believe that police officers sometimes escalate their responses to some suspects in some situations?
| Czarjorge wrote: |
| ...far too often negotiations are replaced with a taser blast to someone who might have otherwise stood down with a few well placed words. |
There is a hell of an assumption. How did you come by this? Data? Anything?
What is it with so many on this board and their overriding committment to the Kumbaya worldview? |
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Czarjorge
Joined: 01 May 2007
Location: I now have the same moustache, and it is glorious.
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| Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 1:35 pm Post subject: |
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The video of that jackass in Florida getting tazered is a perfect example.
Van had a valid point. Some cops go for the tazer too quick. That's not a reason to eliminate the tazer altogether though.
There's no overly positive and optimistic worldview here. It would seem that your worldview might be a little too pessimistic though. |
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bassexpander
Joined: 13 Sep 2007
Location: Someplace you'd rather be.
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| Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 2:15 pm Post subject: Re: Tasered Pig Studies Raise Serious Safety Issues |
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| igotthisguitar wrote: |
Chicago Study Calls Taser's Safety Claims Into Question
The team of doctors and scientists at the trauma centre in Chicago's Cook County hospital shot 11 pigs with Taser guns in 2006, hitting their chests with 40-second jolts of electricity, pausing for 10 to 15 seconds, then hitting them for 40 more seconds. |
Wow, had to shock them for 40 full seconds, about 10 times longer than a cop would shock a lawbreaker, then shock them for yet another 40 seconds to finally get the results they wanted from this test?
Give me a break. It's akin to giving test subjects 10 times the regular dosage of a medicine, seeing some die from it, then saying the medicine is unsafe.
This "study" is a load of crap. |
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yawarakaijin
Joined: 08 Aug 2006
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| Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 3:16 pm Post subject: |
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| VanIslander wrote: |
| Czarjorge wrote: |
| I would rather be tazered than shot. |
Heart disease is the number 1 killer in America. The silent disease.
Zap someone with ticker or blood plumbing problems and they're probably more likely to die of a heart attack as a result.
This ain't rocket science.
And a taser is NOT the alternative to a gunshot in most cases: it's an alternative to continued communication and physical contact, in instances when deadly force is believed NOT needed, yet in fact that is what is being provided.
Tasers are an escalation of force. |
I would have to agree 100% with the above statement. In fact, I don't believe I have EVER seen/heard of an instance where a taser was used as an actual alternative to deadly force. That arguement is pure horse manure.
"Hey, he just pulled a gun. Taser him!" No.
It is more often along the line of, "Get out of the car now. No?" ZAAAAAP.
It's not like cops used to be able to just shoot non-compliant suspects before. "Maam, please calm down and drop the groceries...no? BAMMM! right between the eyes.  |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 4:05 pm Post subject: |
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| yawarakaijin wrote: |
| It's not like cops used to be able to just shoot non-compliant suspects before. |
No. It was choke-holds and batons. |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 4:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
Interesting test. I move that we petition law-enforcement agencies across the nation to order their officers to stop tasering suspect pigs henceforward. They ought to find another way to deal with pigs-with-attitude...
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And do you remember this little pig?
I hope no-one would taser him!  |
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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 4:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
| yawarakaijin wrote: |
| It's not like cops used to be able to just shoot non-compliant suspects before. |
No. It was choke-holds and batons. |
So, should there not be studies to show which are safer? |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 5:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Captain Corea wrote: |
| So, should there not be studies to show which are safer? |
The facts underlying our differences are the following: you will oppose anything the police do; and, behind this, you do not even accept that noncompliant suspects exist or pose a problem in the first place.
You only see thuggish fascists and their brutality against "the people."
If you were open to persuasion, I would remind you that police bureaucracies abandoned choke-holds and batons in favor of today's tasers following a pattern of civil litigation that had transformed them into liabilities.
What is now developing is a pattern of civil complaints that might become a pattern of civil litigation that may transform tasers into liabilities.
It is a kind of Darwinian evolutionary pattern of escalation.
And at the end of the day, the problematic, noncompliant suspects that you do not accept as real will continue to antagonize and disobey simple, legal, and authorized police instructions like "please leave the building" or "you are under arrest, place your hands behind your back." And someone, somwhere, at sometime will still have to make the tough call of dealing with them or, apparently as some here would advise, just leaving them alone in their rampage or whatever it is that they are doing that drew police attn in the first place. |
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igotthisguitar
Joined: 08 Apr 2003
Location: South Korea (Permanent Vacation)
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| Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 5:09 pm Post subject: |
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Don't taze me bro!
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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 7:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
| Captain Corea wrote: |
| So, should there not be studies to show which are safer? |
The facts underlying our differences are the following: you will oppose anything the police do; and, behind this, you do not even accept that noncompliant suspects exist or pose a problem in the first place.
You only see thuggish fascists and their brutality against "the people."
If you were open to persuasion, I would remind you that police bureaucracies abandoned choke-holds and batons in favor of today's tasers following a pattern of civil litigation that had transformed them into liabilities.
What is now developing is a pattern of civil complaints that might become a pattern of civil litigation that may transform tasers into liabilities.
It is a kind of Darwinian evolutionary pattern of escalation.
And at the end of the day, the problematic, noncompliant suspects that you do not accept as real will continue to antagonize and disobey simple, legal, and authorized police instructions like "please leave the building" or "you are under arrest, place your hands behind your back." And someone, somwhere, at sometime will still have to make the tough call of dealing with them or, apparently as some here would advise, just leaving them alone in their rampage or whatever it is that they are doing that drew police attn in the first place. |
I'm sorry man, but before I reply to all this... did you really mean to quote me and address it all to me?
I mean, I know there are divisions on this board, but are you really just lumping me in with "one side" before hearing me out?
I do not recall EVER saying that POLICE are always in the wrong, nor that Tazers are an evil thing, I simply question their usage and the training and purposes behind them.
Now, I'm going to ask again, did you really mean to put words into my mouth and in turn, speak as if you know what is in my mind? |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 8:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Czarjorge wrote: |
The video of that jackass in Florida getting tazered is a perfect example.
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Of when to use a tazer? In that case yes. He resisted arrest (and a couple of the officers sported bruises to prove it...as I pointed out in that other thread).
If one resists arrest with violence, officers have NO obligation to try and restrain him without causing any injury or discomfort to said person.
Do what you are told and you won't get tazered. Sounds to me like something a FIVE-YEAR-OLD could understand. |
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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 8:32 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Czarjorge wrote: |
The video of that jackass in Florida getting tazered is a perfect example.
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Of when to use a tazer? In that case yes. He resisted arrest (and a couple of the officers sported bruises to prove it...as I pointed out in that other thread).
If one resists arrest with violence, officers have NO obligation to try and restrain him without causing any injury or discomfort to said person.
Do what you are told and you won't get tazered. Sounds to me like something a FIVE-YEAR-OLD could understand. |
Seriously? You'd want to bring a 5 year old into this type of example?? |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 9:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Captain Corea wrote: |
| Gopher wrote: |
| yawarakaijin wrote: |
| It's not like cops used to be able to just shoot non-compliant suspects before. |
No. It was choke-holds and batons. |
So, should there not be studies to show which are safer? |
I'm a little confused here...it looks you are asking for studies on shooting vs choke-holds and batons to show which are safer...I assume you mean tazers vs choke-holds & batons? 
The problem with that is how exactly do you test which is safer? After all humans are the only real test subjects that can give detailed feedback. Pigs are not a realistic standby. What might kill a human might not kill a pig and vice versa. Plus it would be rather difficult to put a pig in a choke hold. You can't really conduct tests using choke holds, batons and tazers ( if you want to draw accurate conclusions, you'd have to use humans, and I doubt too many would volunteer.) |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 9:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Captain Corea wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Czarjorge wrote: |
The video of that jackass in Florida getting tazered is a perfect example.
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Of when to use a tazer? In that case yes. He resisted arrest (and a couple of the officers sported bruises to prove it...as I pointed out in that other thread).
If one resists arrest with violence, officers have NO obligation to try and restrain him without causing any injury or discomfort to said person.
Do what you are told and you won't get tazered. Sounds to me like something a FIVE-YEAR-OLD could understand. |
Seriously? You'd want to bring a 5 year old into this type of example?? |
Oh come on! I was saying that it's on the level of a five old's understanding, not that five year olds should be involved in tazering or anything else like that. If a five year old can understanding that disobeying orders can bring unpleasant consequences (like being sent to his room NOT TAZERING) then an adult should be able to recognize that not following the orders of police officers can also bring unpleasant consequences (like being tazered).
My point was that it's fairly easy to understand. |
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