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SuperFly
Joined: 09 Jul 2003
Location: In the doghouse
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 Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 9:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Or Kentucky... |
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cunning_stunt
Joined: 16 Dec 2007
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| Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 9:15 pm Post subject: |
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This idea that going to war to prevent war is absurd in itself . And now they want to esculate the war into Iran ?
It's one dirty bomb away from nuclear hollocaust . If you want to avoid that scenario don't throw more fuel on the fire . Go home . I won't think you've been humiliated ...I'm cheer and wax lyrically about the great american people who stood up and voted out this B#llshit . This is your chance . You get out of jail free card . Vote in somebody who will bring your troops home . The whole world will see it as good will from the american people . Muslim fundamentalism will die a quick death when you take away the dangling carrot of "richeousness". that's phase 1 . Next secure an independant homeland for the palestinians ...become their "saviour" . You will be the heroes of the muslim world .
Mcain won't do that . If you must viote republican vote Ron Paul . He will . If you must vote democrat just don't vote Clinton...she won't . |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 9:25 pm Post subject: |
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| cunning_stunt wrote: |
This idea that going to war to prevent war is absurd in itself . And now they want to esculate the war into Iran ?
It's one dirty bomb away from nuclear hollocaust . If you want to avoid that scenario don't throw more fuel on the fire . Go home . I won't think you've been humiliated ...I'm cheer and wax lyrically about the great american people who stood up and voted out this B#*beep* . This is your chance . You get out of jail free card . Vote in somebody who will bring your troops home . The whole world will see it as good will from the american people . Mcain won't do that . If you must viote republican vote Ron Paul . He will . If you must vote democrat just don't vote Clinton...she won't . |
Well, preemptive war could be justified in theory, I suppose. It would be a very unique situation. I don't think the idea of a defensive war is absurd in itself, but as it was applied to Iraq, YES.
Thankfully, the Iran thing is off the table. But WMD proliferation is a serious issue that our species has to deal with. The greatest political tragedy of the Iraq disaster is that Bush took a very important cause (nonproliferation) and caused it to be associated with illegal war.
The world will not be a better place with a nuclear armed Iran. But any kind of military solution has to be the absolute very last option. I don't know if humans can survive religious theocracies armed with the ability to bring the world to an end. For the record, I've never supported any kind of action against Iran. I could imagine a situation in which I would support one, though. We aren't there yet, at all. For now, it is best to engage them and use a carrot/stick approach. Normalize relations and let the Iranian people know they are not our enemy. The youth are surprisingly pro-American/Western and not at all fond of their government. They are our hope.
I was against the war in Iraq. I got off my ass and went to the protests. And today (and sometimes on this site) I egg on my more militaristic peers with a stubborn "pull out" opinion. I don't seriously think this would be best. What would be best is for the next government in the United States to make a meaningful appeal to the rest of the world for help. America can't do it alone, and a genocide will likely be the consequence of a "cut and run". We need Africans, Germans, French, Indians, Brazilians and most importantly soldiers from islamic states (Indonesia, Malaysia, Turkey, Pakistan) on the ground in Iraq, securing the streets and borders so that some kind of political solution can be found. This is an international problem and needs an international solution. |
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cunning_stunt
Joined: 16 Dec 2007
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| Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 9:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Thankfully, the Iran thing is off the table. |
I'm not sure . The united states has manufactured events to get into wars before (always in fact) and could easily use this tactic again .
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Normalize relations and let the Iranian people know they are not our enemy. The youth are surprisingly pro-American/Western and not at all fond of their government. They are our hope.
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Aaaaah .Common ground. See we can all get allong . Yes . The tough guy/bully act does not endear you to other people . It allows their leaders to create animosity in the peoples minds about you wanting to opress them .
But to pull out would be best . Sadly the reality is that you just don't have any credibility anymore . No one is interested in seeing Iraq succeed while you are there . No one wants to see this war justified , not even many Americans .
Vote someone in who will pull them out as a grand gesture . Of course in reality put means in place to secure the safety of the people , but downplay the american involement in this . If the people know you are involved they will reject any efforts at peace making . There have been too many civilian deaths...too much carnage and slaughter for the states to escape this with no egg on the face . But to keep up this charade just to appear tough just comes at too much expense .
For the hate to stop the people need the cathartic symbol of the United states showing that it understands what it did was wrong . They will always hate you , but not to the level they will want to "follow you home " if you do this . |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 9:46 pm Post subject: |
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Well, we have to agree to disagree. I think the likely outcome of a quick pullout is a genocide (or at best massive civil war). We are dealing with less bad options here.
Also, I don't think that the United States should concern itself primarily with how "the people" of the world view her actions. While is sure isn't good to have so many tens of millions of violence prone muslim men hating America, I think that there are quite a large number of priorities above this that the US ought to consider.
By the way, the "you" description is inaccurate. I'm not American. |
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cunning_stunt
Joined: 16 Dec 2007
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| Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 9:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Well, we have to agree to disagree |
Fair enough . See mods ? Let adults talk a thing out . This the idea of diplomacy . The conclusion is that they are more likely to find they have more in common they they think . Let this be a lesson to you . |
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CentralCali
Joined: 17 May 2007
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| Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 10:11 pm Post subject: |
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| ernie wrote: |
| how could the US fight a war to 'help south koreans' when the country didn't even exist at the time? |
Date of establishment of the Republic of Korea: August 15, 1948.
Date of establishment of the Democratic People's Republic of Korea: September 9, 1948.
Date of beginning of hostilities in the Korean War: June 25, 1950.
Got any other ignorance I can fight for you? The rest of your posting is just more blather. |
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CentralCali
Joined: 17 May 2007
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| Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 10:14 pm Post subject: |
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| cunning_stunt wrote: |
| The united states has manufactured events to get into wars before (always in fact) and could easily use this tactic again . |
Care to prove this absurd assertion without resorting to WONJCT? |
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CentralCali
Joined: 17 May 2007
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| Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 10:16 pm Post subject: |
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| cunning_stunt wrote: |
| I'm cheer and wax lyrically about the great american people who stood up and voted out this B#*beep* . This is your chance . You get out of jail free card . |
Bush cannot run for re-election. Wow. Your ignorance on so many things is impressive! |
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cunning_stunt
Joined: 16 Dec 2007
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| Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 10:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Care to prove this absurd assertion without resorting to WONJCT? |
What is WONJCT ? And why is it absurd ? If you have an agenda to go to war it often requires an event to get the public behind you .
Some examples for your consideration . I don't offer these are proofs . One must formulate his own world view , weigh up the validity of whatever they they seeing for themselves and consider if it is consistant with the data and human nature . I don't have access to any vault of secret files or anything so it would be arrogant and wrong of me to say I can prove anything . I only have pattern recognition to go by .
..coming up .
[url][/url]
Last edited by cunning_stunt on Mon Feb 04, 2008 10:37 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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CentralCali
Joined: 17 May 2007
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| Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 10:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Whacked Out Nut Job Conspircacy Theories. You know, like the idea that the United States always manufactured an excuse to go to war. You can't seriously believe that the US manufactured the attack on Pearl Harbor, can you? If you do, you are clearly devoid of rational thought. |
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cunning_stunt
Joined: 16 Dec 2007
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| Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 10:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Bush cannot run for re-election. Wow. Your ignorance on so many things is impressive! |
what are you on about ? When did I say he could ? |
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CentralCali
Joined: 17 May 2007
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| Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 10:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Where you said this is our opportunity to vote Bush out. |
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cunning_stunt
Joined: 16 Dec 2007
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| Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 10:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Whacked Out Nut Job Conspircacy Theories. You know, like the idea that the United States always manufactured an excuse to go to war. You can't seriously believe that the US manufactured the attack on Pearl Harbor, can you? If you do, you are clearly devoid of rational thought. |
No they didn't attack pearl harbour . But they allowed it to happen .
How about the gulf of Tonkin incident ? Weapons of mass desruction ? You don't think these were manufactured to get manipulate public opinion and you are calling me the whacked out nut job ?
If you are going to dismiss everything that isn't in the main stream media with such language you have no hope of seeing the woods for the trees . You obviously are far too invested emotively in the issue to be rational or objective . |
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cunning_stunt
Joined: 16 Dec 2007
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| Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 10:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Where you said this is our opportunity to vote Bush out. |
No , you *beep* . I said to vote someone in who would bring the troops home . How did you read any of my comments and even get the remote idea I'm didn't know Bush couldn't stand a third term ? Your inability to derive the most basic information presented to you really doesn't do much for your credibility . |
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