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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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 Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 7:11 am Post subject: |
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| The only platitude here is "tolerance". And feel free to talk about tolerance to the Jews getting stoned by laughing muslim kids in the UK while paying respects to their dead or to the muslim women being returned by muslim cops to their abusive families while everybody else shuts up for fear of being labeled racist. |
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Justin Hale
Joined: 24 Nov 2007
Location: the Straight Talk Express
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| Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 7:23 am Post subject: |
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| jkelly80 wrote: |
| Justin Hale wrote: |
| Julius wrote: |
Britain is voluntarily giving up its muscle, bit by bit.
To be expected of course. The glory days of knowing whats right and wrong are long gone and the country has subsided into a directionless wimpy corner of the EU. |
Gordon Brown, British Prime Minister, however said:
Gordon Brown's spokesman said the prime minister "believes that British laws should be based on British values". (.......)
As much as I would love nothing more than to see BBC/Guardian women wear the burqa, it's sadly never gonna happen. And when I say "as I would love nothing more" I mean it, since that is the only thing that will wake Europeans out of their dogmatic slumber and destroy the spectre that is haunting Europe.
Vote Conservative. Vote Republican. Vote anyone who wants to defend civilization against barbarianism, because no-one else wants to. |
Civilization only for the civilized though, right? |
Right. When Bush said, essentially, it's us against them, he wasn't just pulling any old crap out of his ass.
Muslim people dance in street at worst and privately rejoice at best when the likes of you and I - but preferably an Israeli - die.
On 9/11/2001, barbarianism declared war on civilization. If youre against Bush, you're against yourself, your parents and everything you think rocks. I'm putting this in grossly simplistic and demotic terms to appeal to anyone who dares to question that civilization must declare war, total war, against a Stone Age death cult that seeks to destroy actual human beings
| JKelly80 wrote: |
| .Freedom for the free? Platitudes for the platitudinal? Broad, emotionally-driven statements based on fear and paranoia for the fearful and paranoid? etc... |
I simply haven;t the patience to even begin a rational refutation of the above intellectual and moral malfeasance. I say only this: If you oppose the war on belief that the Quran is literal truth, you personally endanager civilization and you are as dangerous as C02. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 7:28 am Post subject: |
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On 9/11/2001, barbarianism declared war on civilization. If youre against Bush, you're against yourself, your parents and everything you think rocks. I'm putting this in grossly simplistic and demotic terms to appeal to anyone who dares to question that civilization must declare war, total war, against a Stone Age death cult that seeks to destroy actual human beings
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Would you be able to explain how Bush's war has done anything to roll back "the Stone Age death cult"? As far as I can tell, the people who have taken over in much of post-baathist Iraq aren't exactly feminist egalitarians. |
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Justin Hale
Joined: 24 Nov 2007
Location: the Straight Talk Express
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| Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 7:42 am Post subject: |
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| On the other hand wrote: |
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On 9/11/2001, barbarianism declared war on civilization. If youre against Bush, you're against yourself, your parents and everything you think rocks. I'm putting this in grossly simplistic and demotic terms to appeal to anyone who dares to question that civilization must declare war, total war, against a Stone Age death cult that seeks to destroy actual human beings
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Would you be able to explain how Bush's war has done anything to roll back "the Stone Age death cult"? As far as I can tell, the people who have taken over in much of post-baathist Iraq aren't exactly feminist egalitarians. |
Buddy, your notion of the war is straying from what is sensible, moral, decent and proper. The purpose of the Iraq war is to provoke your enemy into killing each other (so you don't have to). It's largely successful...if only they'd pull out and give the Sunnis and the Shiites the war they want and, for the sake of oxygen consumption, need. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 8:06 am Post subject: |
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| The purpose of the Iraq war is to provoke your enemy into killing each other |
But previously you wrote...
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| If youre against Bush, you're against yourself, your parents and everything you think rocks. |
So, first you say that we have to for Bush. But Bush didn't say anything about starting a civil war when he launched the invasion of Iraq. In fact, he pretty much said the opposite, that the war would bring democracy to the region, with a low number of casualties. How can you say that people have to support Bush, and then turn around and pretty much admit that Bush is lying about his reasons for the war?
And by the way...
Among the communties most victimized by the Iraqi civil war have been the Christian community, who have been targetted by various Muslim militias and are now fleeing the country in droves. Hard to see how this constitutes any sort of a blow against Islam. |
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twg
Joined: 02 Nov 2006
Location: Getting some fresh air...
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| Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 8:19 am Post subject: |
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| Justin Hale wrote: |
| On 9/11/2001, barbarianism declared war on civilization. If youre against Bush, you're against yourself, your parents and everything you think rocks. I'm putting this in grossly simplistic and demotic terms to appeal to anyone who dares to question that civilization must declare war, total war, against a Stone Age death cult that seeks to destroy actual human beings |
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jkelly80
Joined: 13 Jun 2007
Location: you boys like mexico?
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| Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 9:56 am Post subject: |
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| Justin Hale wrote: |
If youre against Bush, you're against yourself, your parents and everything you think rocks. I'm putting this in grossly simplistic and demotic terms to appeal to anyone who dares to question that civilization must declare war, total war, against a Stone Age death cult that seeks to destroy actual human beings
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1. Do you have any idea of when the Stone Age occurred?
2. Actual human beings have been destroyed, and in much larger numbers, in the hundreds of wars and skirmishes in the twentieth century, most of it having nothing to do with al-Qaeda. If you're trying to pin the murderous theology of al-Qaeda and the Muslim Brotherhood on Islam as a whole, you're simpleton. |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 3:48 pm Post subject: |
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| thepeel wrote: |
As we see with honor killings, forced bedsheet wearing and the like, these women are not given a choice. The muslim community is dominated by evil old men who use violent young men to keep everybody in line. This is why you almost NEVER hear from "moderates". Bringing in sharia will only legitimize this situation and give it the facade of normalcy. |
You're making a slippery slope argument here. I have noticed, even in Canada, some muslim women wear their veil. They're not required to by law. Are they doing it because their husbands/fathers demand it? Or because they're truly religious. Sikhs wear a kirpan. Christians wear a cross. You'll notice in my crazy jesus guy thread some guys wear dresses. Hey whatever.
I dare say substitute sharia law with gay marriage and your argument remains the same.
Bringing in gay marriage will only legitimize this situation and give it the facade of normalcy.
And remember how Canadian society was going to unravel when we had sunday shopping?
And tolerance is not the issue. Any woman in Canada who submits herself to sharia law is being stupid. Just as any woman who starts dating a married man is being stupid. We long ago got rid of adultery laws to protect women from this act of stupidity. I'm more than happy if any arbitration system straight up tells a woman all the rights she's giving up if she enters the system she chooses, outlines the protections Canadian society offers her. But if she thinks her immortal soul is at peril, well, that's her stupid choice.
I'm just really surprised a libertarian such as yourself wants the state to jump into a matter that should be between two people. |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 5:46 pm Post subject: |
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The veil is worn by only women and by in large only due to the threat of familial violence. Maybe you haven't been following the recent bunch of honor killings in Toronto, Dallas and elsewhere. Sure, you can ask a women "why do you wear it" and she might tell you for family or for faith or political reasons but this is like asking a slave if he likes being a slave in front of his slavemaster. We know what is true because of the dissidents who expose the lies and the trail of death and violence against women that follows islam.
The muslim "community" (and I use that word as cynically and loosely as possible) is highly secretive, run by old men with 9th century ideas and kept in line by violence prone young men. I'm sorry mm2, but the gay thing about two consenting adults. Women are neither treated as being able to consent nor being able to reach adulthood. The analysis doesn't hold. |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 5:50 pm Post subject: |
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| mindmetoo wrote: |
And tolerance is not the issue. Any woman in Canada who submits herself to sharia law is being stupid. |
It isn't their choice to submit. Upon being born with a vagina, these decisions are already made. |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 6:00 pm Post subject: |
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For example:
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Violations of 'Islamic teachings' take deadly toll on Iraqi women
BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) -- The images in the Basra police file are nauseating: Page after page of women killed in brutal fashion -- some strangled to death, their faces disfigured; others beheaded. All bear signs of torture.
The women are killed, police say, because they failed to wear a headscarf or because they ignored other "rules" that secretive fundamentalist groups want to enforce. |
http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/meast/02/08/iraq.women/index.html |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 6:04 pm Post subject: |
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http://torontosun.com/News/TorontoAndGTA/2008/02/08/4834588-sun.html
Looks like Canada is rockin the sharia too. Oh Canada. Giving additional welfare to immigrants with many wives.
| Quote: |
Hundreds of GTA Muslim men in polygamous marriages -- some with a harem of wives -- are receiving welfare and social benefits for each of their spouses, thanks to the city and province, Muslim leaders say.
Mumtaz Ali, president of the Canadian Society of Muslims, said wives in polygamous marriages are recognized as spouses under the Ontario Family Law Act, providing they were legally married under Muslim laws abroad.
"Polygamy is a regular part of life for many Muslims," Ali said yesterday. "Ontario recognizes religious marriages for Muslims and others."
He estimates "several hundred" GTA husbands in polygamous marriages are receiving benefits. Under Islamic law, a Muslim man is permitted to have up to four spouses.
However, city and provincial officials said legally a welfare applicant can claim only one spouse. Other adults living in the same household can apply for welfare independently.
The average recipient with a child can receive about $1,500 monthly, city officials said.
FAMILY LAW ACT
In addressing the issue of polygamous marriages, the preamble to the Ontario Family Law Act states: "In the definition of 'spouse,' a reference to marriage includes a marriage that is actually or potentially polygamous, if it was celebrated in a jurisdiction whose system of law recognizes it as valid. R.S.O. 1990, c. F.3, s. 1 (2)."
"There are many people in the community who are taking advantage of this," Ali said. "This is a law and there's nothing wrong with it."
Immigration officials said yesterday that polygamous marriages aren't allowed in Canada, but that contradicts the provincial law.
"Canada is a very liberal-minded country," Ali said. "Canada is way ahead of Britain in this respect."
He said Britain recently began permitting husbands to collect benefits for each of their wives.
The British government recently admitted that nearly a thousand men are living legally with multiple wives in Britain. Although the families are entitled to claim social security for each wife, the department for work and pensions said it has not counted how many are on benefits.
In Canada, Ali said, the man and his main wife and children enter Canada as landed immigrants. The other spouses are sponsored or arrive as visitors to join their husband to share one home.
POSSIBLE FRAUD
The families receiving benefits didn't want their identities released because it can lead to questions by authorities on how they entered Canada and can mean an end to their benefits, Ali said.
Brenda Nesbitt, the city's director of social services, said benefits are only paid to one spouse and names and addresses are cross-checked for possible fraud.
"There may be polygamous cases we are not aware off," Nesbitt said yesterday. "They can apply as single people and we won't know."
Ontario Community and Social Services spokesman Erike Botond said a social assistance benefit may only include one spouse. "Other adults residing in the same dwelling place as a recipient and their spouse may apply as individuals."
"I can assure you that polygamy is not recognized under immigration legislation," immigration spokesman Karen Shadd-Evelyn said yesterday. "A conjugal relationship, whether involving marriage or a common-law partnership, must be exclusive."
Councillor Rob Ford said taxpayers' money should be spent on education and schools instead.
"This is wrong," Ford said yesterday. "They should put a stop to this immediately." |
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Justin Hale
Joined: 24 Nov 2007
Location: the Straight Talk Express
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| Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 7:24 pm Post subject: |
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| On the other hand wrote: |
Among the communties most victimized by the Iraqi civil war have been the Christian community, who have been targetted by various Muslim militias and are now fleeing the country in droves. Hard to see how this constitutes any sort of a blow against Islam. |
Well, that's an unsurprising though unfortunate byproduct. Nevertheless, Iraq is a highly sectarian, hostile and artificial state superimposed on the people by the West and Saddam's regime. The latter was constantly putting down rebellions. The notion that war between Sunnis and Shiites, who are united in their hatred of civilization, is not a deliberate and calculated effort is as naive and erroneous as the position that the effort is a genuine attempt at bringing the fruits of peace and democracy to a benighted Arab world. It is a superficially valuable and pleasing appearance for a what is a straightforward attempt to return Iraq to its bloody chaos, the benefits being war against Al Qaeda and war between the enemy of civilization who also happen to hate each other.
| jkelly80 wrote: |
| 1. Do you have any idea of when the Stone Age occurred? |
Yes, thanks, however I meant it in the derogatory rather than literal sense.
| jkelly80 wrote: |
| If you're trying to pin the murderous theology of al-Qaeda and the Muslim Brotherhood on Islam as a whole, you're simpleton |
Al-Qaeda are the equivalent of the Westboro Baptist Church - real theologians with the truest and most evidenced interpretation of the book and the prophet. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2008 1:52 am Post subject: |
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| The veil is worn by only women and by in large only due to the threat of familial violence. Maybe you haven't been following the recent bunch of honor killings in Toronto, Dallas and elsewhere |
Umm, yeah, I have been following those stories. But some other honor killings take place because the woman chooses to have pre-marital sex. According to your logic, we should be all panicked about Muslim women who choose to remain virigins until they get married, because most Muslim women who make that choice(again according to your logic) do so under threat of familial violence. |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2008 3:10 am Post subject: |
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| On the other hand wrote: |
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| The veil is worn by only women and by in large only due to the threat of familial violence. Maybe you haven't been following the recent bunch of honor killings in Toronto, Dallas and elsewhere |
Umm, yeah, I have been following those stories. But some other honor killings take place because the woman chooses to have pre-marital sex. According to your logic, we should be all panicked about Muslim women who choose to remain virigins until they get married, because most Muslim women who make that choice(again according to your logic) do so under threat of familial violence. |
No. According to my logic our societies ought to do as much as possible to delegitimize the rampant misogyny that exists in mainstream islamic society as much as was (and is being) done to tackle misogyny in Western culture. Pretending that women will be always willing participants in sharia courts is not helpful. |
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