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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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 Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2008 3:17 am Post subject: |
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| jkelly80 wrote: |
| If you're trying to pin the murderous theology of al-Qaeda and the Muslim Brotherhood on Islam as a whole, you're simpleton. |
Why? |
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jkelly80
Joined: 13 Jun 2007
Location: you boys like mexico?
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| Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2008 6:29 am Post subject: |
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| thepeel wrote: |
| jkelly80 wrote: |
| If you're trying to pin the murderous theology of al-Qaeda and the Muslim Brotherhood on Islam as a whole, you're simpleton. |
Why? |
Every society and every religion has sects, factions, and people that don't get along internally but put up a united front in the face of an external threat, real or perceived. These people don't hate us in the numbers that they do simply because of the words Koran and the Hadith (although there are many that simply do just that). The people who supported al Qaeda, financially or in terms of public opinion, are thinking more of troops in the holy land, support for Israel, etc. Al-qaeda are wackos, but their support dries up pretty quickly if they don't have an external bogeyman to blame for their barbarism (as in al-Anbar).
Whatever your opinions on Israel, there's a ton of animus regarding our support for that state in the Arab world, most of which has to do with political and economic reasons. The Koran, being the the book of the newest religion and the one forged in "global" conquest is probably the most aggressive of all the Abrahamic traditions, but the problem in regards to the Jihadis is more that Islamic societies have a stunted civil society and absolutely no hierarchy against which to mount an Islamic Reformation, not because of any essential theological murderousness. Iran would be the exception to this, but it's so hated by the Sunni states that any Shia reformation wouldn't do much good for the region as a whole anyway. |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2008 10:38 am Post subject: |
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In other words, you haven't read the koran or hadiths and instead are making a "diversity of thought" argument hoping that it will stick.
But yes. There are different streams of islam. However, AQ is the most true to the texts, and we can at this point only hope that the majority of the rest of them move away from the koran being the inerrant recitation. |
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caniff
Joined: 03 Feb 2004
Location: All over the map
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| Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2008 10:42 am Post subject: |
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How long did it take you to read the Koran and the Hadiths?
(Honest question). |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2008 10:56 am Post subject: |
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I've read the koran several times now. First time was in university for a project. This was my first contact with the hadiths too. The koran is a short read (nothing like the bible) and best accompanied by a guide to help understand the discourse and historical references. Apparently there is a pictorial version that has been approved by various imans in Iran and Saudi.
This is a good source for the hadiths.
http://www.al-islam.com/eng/ |
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jkelly80
Joined: 13 Jun 2007
Location: you boys like mexico?
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| Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2008 11:00 am Post subject: |
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| thepeel wrote: |
In other words, you haven't read the koran or hadiths and instead are making a "diversity of thought" argument hoping that it will stick.
But yes. There are different streams of islam. However, AQ is the most true to the texts, and we can at this point only hope that the majority of the rest of them move away from the koran being the inerrant recitation. |
Rather than address the argument, address the 1300 year old text and claim that it's incompatible with modernity, which is both obvious and irrelevant. |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2008 11:06 am Post subject: |
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Unfortunately, it isn't. If hundreds of millions of people believe it to be true, and act as such, then it is quite relevant.
Like the christian nutties, the essential problem is their absurd faith in an iron-aged book. And that is what needs to be taken on. Rather than pretend that faith doesn't motivate misogyny, terrorism, racism and imperialism we ought to give honesty a try. This is a clash of civilizations. |
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caniff
Joined: 03 Feb 2004
Location: All over the map
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| Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2008 11:26 am Post subject: |
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| thepeel wrote: |
I've read the koran several times now. First time was in university for a project. This was my first contact with the hadiths too. The koran is a short read (nothing like the bible) and best accompanied by a guide to help understand the discourse and historical references. Apparently there is a pictorial version that has been approved by various imans in Iran and Saudi.
This is a good source for the hadiths.
http://www.al-islam.com/eng/ |
Thanks. I've only seen piecemeal excerpts here and there until now.
It's good news to me that the Koran is shorter that the Bible, as I would like to check it out in it's entirety. I read the Bible years ago, even though I am and have been agnostic, because I felt an educated person should. But as I recall it was a tough work to get all the way through. |
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stillnotking
Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Location: Oregon, USA
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| Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2008 1:01 pm Post subject: |
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This is perhaps the most clear-cut and ridiculous case of wingnut hysteria I have ever seen.
thepeel, are you familiar with Eugene Volokh? He's an American libertarian lawyer who probably has political views very close to your own. He wrote a good article about this "controversy". Money quote:
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| No-one is talking about executing apostates, only about providing for an alternate way to resolve normal civil disputes related to financial transactions, divorce, and the like. |
Guess what? The USA does this already. There is nothing bizarre or sinister about it, it is not a symptom of Islamic infiltration, and it is ridiculous to get worked up over it.
If two consenting adults want to use sharia law as the controlling principle in a contract, they can do it. If they want to appoint Bozo the Clown as an arbiter, they can do that too. The law has allowed for this for, literally, centuries. |
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caniff
Joined: 03 Feb 2004
Location: All over the map
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| Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2008 1:30 pm Post subject: |
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I think what peel is saying is that there would likely not be an equal bargaining position (due to cultural contraints) in the respective parties' premarital choices for dispute resolution. In the event of a domestic relations court proceeding under Sharia law, guess who would probably be the losing party?
Have you ever heard of the legal concept of duress and undue influence during contract formation? This is exactly why Sharia law is a terrible option, and has no business being implemented in a Western country for any purpose whatsoever. |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2008 3:22 pm Post subject: |
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| thepeel wrote: |
| mindmetoo wrote: |
And tolerance is not the issue. Any woman in Canada who submits herself to sharia law is being stupid. |
It isn't their choice to submit. Upon being born with a vagina, these decisions are already made. |
Is life any different for women born in fundamentalist, mormon, or menorite, sikh, or asian communities?
You also snipped out the part where I suggest accompanying any kind of family arbitration is counseling about one's true rights and protections. |
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Justin Hale
Joined: 24 Nov 2007
Location: the Straight Talk Express
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| Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2008 6:11 pm Post subject: |
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| jkelly80 wrote: |
| thepeel wrote: |
In other words, you haven't read the koran or hadiths and instead are making a "diversity of thought" argument hoping that it will stick.
But yes. There are different streams of islam. However, AQ is the most true to the texts, and we can at this point only hope that the majority of the rest of them move away from the koran being the inerrant recitation. |
Rather than address the argument, address the 1300 year old text and claim that it's incompatible with modernity, which is both obvious and irrelevant. |
It's obvious and highly relevant. Sharia is in clear tension with the (let's keep it on-topic and say English legal tradition) on questions like monogamy, provisions for divorce, the rights of women, custody of children, laws of inheritance and evidence. This is not to mention freedom of belief and expression and provisions for blasphemy and apostasy. If there are people who prefer sharia law there are always countries where they could go and live. It is certainly unfeasible to incorporate any non-Christian religious law into the English legal system and in my opinion impossible to faithfully observe Islamic principles in the UK and any Western country. |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2008 7:57 pm Post subject: |
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Is life any different for women born in fundamentalist, mormon, or menorite, sikh, or asian communities?
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Not to the same extent. Or, do you lack perspective and proportion too? Either way, if any religious organization wanted their stupid religious laws to overtake LAW I'll oppose it. The muslims are using sharia law to deal with attempted murders, thefts and the like. It ain't just about the women.
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You also snipped out the part where I suggest accompanying any kind of family arbitration is counseling about one's true rights and protections.
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And? You don't get that women do not have a choice in these matters. You can tell these women all they want that they have the same rights and protections as the non-muslim but she is still at the mercy of whatever evil old imam is controlling her community. |
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jkelly80
Joined: 13 Jun 2007
Location: you boys like mexico?
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| Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2008 8:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Justin Hale wrote: |
| jkelly80 wrote: |
| thepeel wrote: |
In other words, you haven't read the koran or hadiths and instead are making a "diversity of thought" argument hoping that it will stick.
But yes. There are different streams of islam. However, AQ is the most true to the texts, and we can at this point only hope that the majority of the rest of them move away from the koran being the inerrant recitation. |
Rather than address the argument, address the 1300 year old text and claim that it's incompatible with modernity, which is both obvious and irrelevant. |
It's obvious and highly relevant. Sharia is in clear tension with the (let's keep it on-topic and say English legal tradition) on questions like monogamy, provisions for divorce, the rights of women, custody of children, laws of inheritance and evidence. This is not to mention freedom of belief and expression and provisions for blasphemy and apostasy. If there are people who prefer sharia law there are always countries where they could go and live. It is certainly unfeasible to incorporate any non-Christian religious law into the English legal system and in my opinion impossible to faithfully observe Islamic principles in the UK and any Western country. |
There are many passages in the Bible that are incompatible with modernity as well. The difference is that the societies that Christianity found purchase in were pluralistic and developed competing centers of authority, not because of some inherent theological superiority to Islam. The texts, across the board, are often brutal and parochial. The difference is the societies in which the texts were read. I'm not trying to argue that a Sharia court is a good idea--it's a horrible one, and it reflects the inferiority of Islamist culture when it comes to tolerance and diversity. But it's not simply because of the 'source codes'. |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2008 8:54 pm Post subject: |
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People read something, believe it and then act on it and the "source codes" aren't the problem. Why aren't Tibetan Buddhists blowing up Chinese army posts? Why do Jains walk around with surgical masks? Do you think we will see a wave of Jain on Hindu beheadings?
islam is Arab culture (from the time) put in devine law. And the Arabs were tribal, petty, warlike, violent, sexist and well, are still that way to this day. Content matters. |
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