Korean Job Discussion Forums

[Privateer]

So I just read this article on the 9/11 accused and the BBC, in its efforts to be fair and balanced, gives equal weight to the CIA's classification of water-boarding as a "professional interrogation technique" and unnamed human rights groups' classification of it as "torture".

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7240213.stm

[thepeel]

Yes. Absolutely.

[Kuros]

Yes.

[Gopher]

Waterboarding is torture. Further, any information derived from it is unreliable.

[Jessie]

Yes, it is most definitely a form of torture. How can America condemn other countries for this type of behavior, when they also participate in these barbaric acts? I agree, any information obtained from this "interrogation technique" is completely unreliable.

[cbclark4]

How effective is water boarding?

CIA members who've undergone water boarding as part of their training
have lasted an average of 14 seconds before begging to be released.
The Navy SEALs once used the technique in their counter-interrogation
training, but they stopped because the trainees could not survive it
without breaking, which was bad for morale. When the CIA used the
water-boarding technique on al-Qaeda operative and supposed "9/11
mastermind" Khalid Sheik Mohammed, he reportedly lasted more than
two minutes before confessing to everything of which he was accused.
Anonymous CIA sources report that Mohammed's interrogators were
impressed.


http://people.howstuffworks.com/water-boarding1.htm

[Gopher]

Nice piece of propaganda you have there, CBClark.

[cbclark4]

Confrontation

The detective presents the facts of the case and informs the suspect of
the evidence against him. This evidence might be real, or it might be
made up. The detective typically states in a confident manner that the
suspect is involved in the crime. The suspect's stress level starts
increasing, and the interrogator may move around the room and invade
the suspect's personal space to increase the discomfort.

If the suspect starts fidgeting, licking his lips and or grooming himself
(running his hand through his hair, for instance), the detective takes
these as indicators of deception and knows he's on the right track.

Theme development

The interrogator creates a story about why the suspect committed the
crime. Theme development is about looking through the eyes of the
suspect to figure out why he did it, why he'd like to think he did it and
what type of excuse might make him admit he did it. Does the suspect
use any particular mode of reasoning more often than others? For
example, does he seem willing to blame the victim? The detective lays
out a theme, a story, that the suspect can latch on to in order to either
excuse or justify his part in the crime, and the detective then observes
the suspect to see if he likes the theme. Is he paying closer attention
than before? Nodding his head? If so, the detective will continue to
develop that theme; if not, he'll pick a new theme and start over. Theme
development is in the background throughout the interrogation. When
developing themes, the interrogator speaks in a soft, soothing voice to
appear non-threatening and to lull the suspect into a false sense of
security.

Stopping denials

Letting the suspect deny his guilt will increase his confidence, so the
detective tries to interrupt all denials, sometimes telling the suspect it'll
be his turn to talk in a moment, but right now, he needs to listen. From
the start of the interrogation, the detective watches for denials and stops
the suspect before he can voice them. In addition to keeping the
suspect's confidence low, stopping denials also helps quiet the suspect so
he doesn't have a chance to ask for a lawyer. If there are no denials
during theme development, the detective takes this as a positive
indicator of guilt. If initial attempts at denial slow down or stop during
theme development, the interrogator knows he has found a good theme
and that the suspect is getting closer to confessing.


Overcoming objections

Once the interrogator has fully developed a theme that the suspect can
relate to, the suspect may offer logic-based objections as opposed to
simple denials, like "I could never rape somebody -- my sister was raped
and I saw how much pain it caused. I would never do that to someone."
The detective handles these differently than he does denials, because
these objections can give him information to turn around and use against
the suspect. The interrogator might say something like, "See, that's
good, you're telling me you would never plan this, that it was out of your
control. You care about women like your sister -- it was just a one-time
mistake, not a recurring thing." If the detective does his job right, an
objection ends up looking more like an admission of guilt.


Getting the suspect's attention

At this point, the suspect should be frustrated and unsure of himself. He
may be looking for someone to help him escape the situation. The
interrogator tries to capitalize on that insecurity by pretending to be the
suspect's ally. He'll try to appear even more sincere in his continued
theme development, and he may get physically closer to the suspect to
make it harder for the suspect to detach from the situation. The
interrogator may offer physical gestures of camaraderie and concern,
such as touching the suspect's shoulder or patting his back.


The suspect loses resolve

If the suspect's body language indicates surrender -- his head in his
hands, his elbows on his knees, his shoulders hunched -- the interrogator
seizes the opportunity to start leading the suspect into confession. He'll
start transitioning from theme development to motive alternatives (see
the next step) that force the suspect to choose a reason why he
committed the crime. At this stage, the interrogator makes every effort
to establish eye contact with the suspect to increase the suspect's stress
level and desire to escape. If, at this point, the suspect cries, the
detective takes this as a positive indicator of guilt.


Alternatives

The interrogator offers two contrasting motives for some aspect of the
crime, sometimes beginning with a minor aspect so it's less threatening
to the suspect. One alternative is socially acceptable ("It was a crime of
passion"), and the other is morally repugnant ("You killed her for the
money"). The detective builds up the contrast between the two
alternatives until the suspect gives an indicator of choosing one, like a
nod of the head or increased signs of surrender. Then, the detective
speeds things up.


Bringing the suspect into the conversation

Once the suspect chooses an alternative, the confession has begun. The
interrogator encourages the suspect to talk about the crime and arranges
for at least two people to witness the confession. One may be the second
detective in room, and another may be brought in for the purpose of
forcing the suspect to confess to a new detective -- having to confess to
a new person increases the suspect's stress level and his desire to just
sign a statement and get out of there. Bringing a new person into the
room also forces the suspect to reassert his socially acceptable reason
for the crime, reinforcing the idea that the confession is a done deal.


The confession

The final stage of an interrogation is all about getting the confession
admitted at trial. The interrogator will have the suspect write out his
confession or state it on videotape. The suspect is usually willing to do
anything at this point to escape the interrogation. The suspect confirms
that his confession is voluntary, not coerced, and signs the statement in
front of witnesses.


http://people.howstuffworks.com/police-interrogation1.htm

[Gopher]

Further, warfare, particularly this kind of warfare, and particularly these kinds of special interrogation needs, are not analogous to criminal law and your Police Detective 101 coursework...

[cbclark4]

Article I
I am an American fighting in the forces which guard my country and our
way of life. I am prepared to give my life in their defense.

Article II
I will never surrender of my own free will. If in command, I will never
surrender the members of my command while they still have the means
to resist.

Article III
If I am captured, I will continue to resist by all means available. I will
make every effort to escape and aid others to escape. I will accept
neither parole nor special favors from the enemy.

Article IV
If I become a prisoner of war I will keep faith with my fellow prisoners. I
will give no information or take part in any action which might be harmful
to my comrades. If I am senior, I will take command. If not, I will obey
the lawful orders of those appointed over me, and will back them up in
every way.

Article V
When questioned, should I become a prisoner of war, I am required to
give name, rank, service number and date of birth. I will evade
answering further questions to the utmost of my ability. I will make no
oral or written statements disloyal to my country and its allies or harmful
to their cause.

Article VI
I will never forget that I am an American, fighting for freedom,
responsible for my actions, and dedicated to the principles which made
my country free. I will trust in my God and in the United States of
America.


http://www.training.sfahq.com/survival_training.htm

[Ya-ta Boy]

Four people have voted 'no'. I'd like to know their reasons.

[cbclark4]

�Train like you Fight, Fight like you Train� is the motto of the world�s most
elite pilots, the US Navy�s. Based on lessons learned from survivors of
the brutal North Korean and North Vietnam torture of US military
prisoners of war, the Department of Defense ordered all branches of the
services to implement comprehensive Survival, Evasion, Resistance and
Escape (S.E.R.E.) training programs. Every member of Congress should
be extremely well versed on the military S.E.R.E. programs since they
have had direct oversight and funding of these programs for over 40
years. Viewing the most recent Congressional hearing, one must assume
that they are ignorant of or intentionally misrepresent the very programs
that they fund and support.

My personal experience with S.E.R.E. training came as a junior pilot
flying the F-14A �Tomcat� at NAS Miramar, California. The US Navy
S.E.R.E. program requires all Aircrew Members and members of Special
Operation Teams (SOF) to undergo both classroom and field experience
in these vital techniques. Classroom and field training was accomplished
by a cadre of highly trained and disciplined personnel, many of whom
had been held as POW�s and tortured by the North Vietnamese.

What actually happens in S.E.R.E. in the field? Classes of 40 or
more �students� are put through beach and water (swimming) survival
techniques, similar to the TV show �Survivor� but without the rewards
challenges. The class is then moved to a remote location to survive and
evade prior to entering the US Navy run POW camp. The operation of the
evasion complex is based on the trainee being briefed on the enemy
position and the location of friendly forces. The object, �to make like a
bush�, be patient and deliberate and use all your new taught skills to
evade a large contingent of simulated enemy combatants in uniform.
They speak like the enemy, act like the enemy, and most importantly
train you on how to react to the enemy. While they fire AK-47�s over
your head, and search for the ugly �American War Criminals� (thanks
Jane), you spend agonizing hours crawling and hiding in an attempt to
reach safety. As in real life, few if any make it to safety when behind
enemy lines.

When captured you are brought to an initial holding facility. Hands and
feet bound and hooded you are thrown into a barbed wire holding cell. As
a former football player and wrestler I felt confident that I had that �John
Wayne� attitude, Name, Rank and Serial Number�.nothing more. Life and
the Navy were about to teach this million dollar trained, blond headed,
college, Fly Boy a new and most important lesson.

When brought into the first �interrogation�, hooded and hands bound, I
was asked the basic questions, no problems...then I was asked a
question -- the first among many not permitted under the Geneva
Convention. Congress, the media and some of the public have forgotten
a very basic and important tenant of the Geneva Convention. Terrorists,
insurgents, IED Specialists, Suicide Bombers and all those not wearing a
uniform in war are not in any form protected by the Geneva Convention.
I did not answer the interrogators� questions: then the fun and games
began.

Carefully using a technique of grabbing your shirt at the pockets and
wrapping his fists so that his knuckles pressed into the muscles of my
breast plate, the instructor flung me across the room karate style and
into a corrugated wall. No more questions; around and around the room I
flew, a dance which while blind folded and hooded made me feel
like �Raggedy Andy� in a tug of war with two bullying kids. Following the
first interrogation we were loaded into trucks, bound and hooded, head to
who knows were...for the first time real fear starts to set in and you look
for inner strength in your heart, training and comrades.

Arriving at the POW Camp I was kept hooded and placed in a small box,
2 feet wide, 3 feet long and maybe 3 feet high. I was left the fetal
position, sitting on my butt, stripped nearly naked (just week old BVD�s)
and left sealed with your defecation can inside your box. Heat, cold,
isolation, no communications, and constant noise, music, propaganda,
coupled with verbal abuse by your captors is the norm, 24/7. Every
twenty minutes or so the guards come by your box and rattle it, sneaking
up and demanding to hear your War Criminal Number (thanks again,
Jane, for the classification). No more name, rank or serial number, they
want some real answers to real security questions. You agonize in your
isolation as your hear other members of your group being pulled out for
more �personal one on one interrogation�. Then it�s your turn. Pulled
from your box you are again brought in for questioning. If unhappy with
your answers or no answers, the �Raggedy Andy� dance began again
with vigor in the cold night air.

Then it was time for the dreaded waterboard. What I didn�t know then,
but I do now, is that as in all interrogations, both for real world hostile
terrorists (non-uniformed combatants) and in S.E.R.E. a highly trained
group of doctors, psychologists, interrogators, and strap-in and strap-out
rescue teams are always present. My first experience on
the �waterboard� was to be laying on my back, on a board with my body
at a 30 degree slope, feet in the air, head down, face-up. The straps are
all-confining, with the only movement of your body that of the ability to
move your head. Slowly water is poured in your face, up your nose, and
some in your mouth. The questions from interrogators and amounts of
water increase with each unsuccessful response. Soon they have your
complete attention as you begin to believe you are going to drown.

Scared, alone, cold and in total lack of control, you learn to �cooperate�
to the best of your ability to protect your life. For each person that level
of cooperation or resistance is different. You must be tested and trained
to know how to respond in the real combat world. Escape was the key to
freedom and reward.

Those students escaping would be rewarded with a meal (apple, and
PB&J sandwich) was what we had been told by our instructors. On my
next journey to interrogation I saw an opportunity to escape. I fled into
the woods, naked and cold, and hid. My captors came searching with AK-
47�s blazing, and calls to �kill the American War Criminal� in broken
English. After an hour of successfully evading, the voices called out in
perfect English. �O.K., problem�s over�you escaped, come in for your
sandwich.� When I stood up and revealed my position I was met by a
crowd of angry enemy guards, �stupid American Criminal�! Back to the
Waterboard I went.

This time we went right to the water hose in the face, and a wet towel
held tightly on my forehead so that I could not move my head. I had
embarrassed my captors and they would now show me that they had
total control. The most agonizing and frightful moments are when the wet
towel is placed over your nose and mouth and the water hose is placed
directly over your mouth. Holding your breath, bucking at the straps,
straining to remain conscious, you believe with all your heart that, that,
you are going to die.

S.E.R.E. training is not pleasant, but it is critical to properly prepare our
most endangered combat forces for the reality of enemy capture. Was
I �tortured� by the US military? No. Was I trained in an effort to protect
my life and the lives of other American fighting men? Yes! Freedom is not
Free, nor does it come without sacrifice. Every good American
understands this basic principle of our country and prays for the young
men and women who have sacrificed and are out on the front lines
protecting us today.

Now, let�s see Congress: Maybe forty or so students per week, let�s say
100 minimum per month, 1,200 per year for over twenty or thirty years?
It could be as many as 40,000 students trained in S.E.R.E. and �tortured�
at the direction of, and under the watchful eye of the Congressional
Majorities on both sides of the aisle. Be careful that the 40,000 of us who
you have �tortured� don�t come after you today with tort claims. I heard
it pays about $3 million per claim.

Congress, you need to get the politics out of the war zone and focus on
your job. Gaining information in non-lethal interrogations against non-
uniformed terrorists is what is protecting our country today. If you had
done your job the past twenty years perhaps one of my favorite
wingmen in the F-14A would be alive today.

Lt Tom �Stout� McGuinness of the VF-21 �Freelancers� went through
S.E.R.E. training during my tenure. But when it came down to the crisis
moment, his �interrogators� did not give him the waterboard. They
merely went into the cockpit of American Airlines Flight 11, slashed Tom�s
throat, and flew the first aircraft into the North Tower of World Trade
Center on 9/11.

Congress, let me ask you a very simple question about your leadership
and your sworn responsibility. It is a yes or no question, and you have a
personal choice to make.

Would you endorse the use of a waterboard interrogation technique
against a terrorist like Mohamed Atta al Sayed, the leader of the
highjacking of American Airlines Flight 11 or not. The answer for me is
simple: �turn on the hose.� If you answer anything else, then God help
America because Tom died in vain.


http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=23220

[Ya-ta Boy]

The above post explains in graphic terms what waterboarding is, it does not explain why it should be legal and used by the US. I get the feeling the writer is saying that because he underwent it, then other people should, too. Maybe I missed the part where the writer explained that he was able to resist, but non-Americans couldn't resist.

[Nowhere Man]

[Gopher]

No. That kind of playing with semantics makes him a politician. No more no less.

The idealist-friendly purist world you dream for exists only there: in your dreams.