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blade
Joined: 30 Jun 2007
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 Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 4:45 am Post subject: |
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| nicholas_chiasson wrote: |
--The argument is that when assimilation is considered evil, and that one's loyalties lie to a foreign country, while being in another, would a Turk in Germany, although a German citizen be urged to protect a Turksih Terrorist? Would he be asked to make his wife and female children follow Islamic Ways? Turkey has become more fundamentalist in the last few years, to the HORROR of most Turks in the West of the country. |
Who said anything about Turkish terrorists? Erdogan said "it was right for Turkish immigrants to learn German and other languages so they could integrate, but wrong to abandon their Turkish heritage and assimilate". He didn't mention anything about Islam or for that matter Islamic Terrorism so I'm not sure where the fifth column comment came from, unless of course one considers the OP's prejudices and then the answer becomes quite clear. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 4:51 am Post subject: |
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| wrong to abandon their Turkish heritage |
Turkish heritage has been secular for the last 90 years. |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 8:40 am Post subject: |
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| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
| Quote: |
| wrong to abandon their Turkish heritage |
Turkish heritage has been secular for the last 90 years. |
This is true. Now, why has this been the case? |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 8:47 am Post subject: |
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| blade wrote: |
I think you're confusing multiculturalism with assimilation. |
Nono. You are confusing multiculturalism with multi-cultural-artifact-ism.
See my above post, and a soc101 text.
It is possible to have different foods coexisting, and even different cultures, but for different cultures to exists together, they all have to agree to live peacefully together. Do you see the problem now? Not all are the same, and not all have the ability to be peaceful. islam can only be in peace if it dominates. Read the muslim texts. It is plain as day.
Hey, show me 3 nations where islam is a large minority that does not have muslim violence against the host? |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 8:54 am Post subject: |
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| blade wrote: |
| nicholas_chiasson wrote: |
--The argument is that when assimilation is considered evil, and that one's loyalties lie to a foreign country, while being in another, would a Turk in Germany, although a German citizen be urged to protect a Turksih Terrorist? Would he be asked to make his wife and female children follow Islamic Ways? Turkey has become more fundamentalist in the last few years, to the HORROR of most Turks in the West of the country. |
Who said anything about Turkish terrorists? Erdogan said "it was right for Turkish immigrants to learn German and other languages so they could integrate, but wrong to abandon their Turkish heritage and assimilate". He didn't mention anything about Islam or for that matter Islamic Terrorism so I'm not sure where the fifth column comment came from, unless of course one considers the OP's prejudices and then the answer becomes quite clear. |
No. The words are picked very carefully so that the army of tolerance have a small string to stand on. Everybody knows exactly what the islamist leader of an increasingly islamist nation means. But he phrases it in a way so that the idiot tolerance police can still pretend that all is ok. Turks know what it means. I know what it means. And you know what it means. But you won't allow honesty to pass as it does not validate your ideology.
You'll come around. I promise. |
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jkelly80
Joined: 13 Jun 2007
Location: you boys like mexico?
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| Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 9:10 am Post subject: |
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| Are those Roslin shirts for sale? That's awesome. More hybrid! |
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blade
Joined: 30 Jun 2007
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| Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 2:54 pm Post subject: |
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| thepeel wrote: |
| blade wrote: |
I think you're confusing multiculturalism with assimilation. |
Nono. You are confusing multiculturalism with multi-cultural-artifact-ism.
See my above post, and a soc101 text. |
I wonder if you have ever read anything beyond soc101, cause you don't seem to know squat about anything outside of your limited understanding of sociology.
| Quote: |
It is possible to have different foods coexisting, and even different cultures, but for different cultures to exists together, they all have to agree to live peacefully together. Do you see the problem now? |
No, sorry I don't, Every religious group has it's fair share of extremists and Islam is no exception in this regard.
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Not all are the same, and not all have the ability to be peaceful. islam can only be in peace if it dominates. Read the muslim texts. It is plain as day. |
Which Muslim texts would these be exactly? |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 7:06 pm Post subject: |
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I wonder if you have ever read anything beyond soc101, cause you don't seem to know squat about anything outside of your limited understanding of sociology.
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Such as?
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No, sorry I don't, Every religious group has it's fair share of extremists and Islam is no exception in this regard. |
Yes, extremist Jain's wear cloth over their mouths in order to prevent the unwanted killing of insects. Extremist Buddhists walk around Singapore barefoot. Obedient muslims set up parallel societies where women are cattle and violence is the tool of choice. They also blow up stuff for sh.its and giggles.
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| Which Muslim texts would these be exactly? |
You haven't even read one word of the koran. Why discuss something that you know nothing about? I know, I know. You think it "intolerant" of me to be honest and just wanted to use the whole "every religion has extremists" nonsense. That argument died a long, long time ago.
Content matters. |
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jkelly80
Joined: 13 Jun 2007
Location: you boys like mexico?
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| Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 7:31 pm Post subject: |
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| thepeel wrote: |
You haven't even read one word of the koran. Why discuss something that you know nothing about? I know, I know. You think it "intolerant" of me to be honest and just wanted to use the whole "every religion has extremists" nonsense. That argument died a long, long time ago.
Content matters. |
Do you think you could, perhaps, address the content of an argument, given your mantra? Maybe just once? "everybody thinks its dumb. it's dead. because they think it's dumb. because it's dead." and on and on. |
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Justin Hale
Joined: 24 Nov 2007
Location: the Straight Talk Express
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| Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 8:01 pm Post subject: |
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| blade wrote: |
| thepeel wrote: |
| blade wrote: |
I think you're confusing multiculturalism with assimilation. |
Nono. You are confusing multiculturalism with multi-cultural-artifact-ism.
See my above post, and a soc101 text. |
I wonder if you have ever read anything beyond soc101, cause you don't seem to know squat about anything outside of your limited understanding of sociology.
| Quote: |
It is possible to have different foods coexisting, and even different cultures, but for different cultures to exists together, they all have to agree to live peacefully together. Do you see the problem now? |
No, sorry I don't, Every religious group has it's fair share of extremists and Islam is no exception in this regard.
| Quote: |
Not all are the same, and not all have the ability to be peaceful. islam can only be in peace if it dominates. Read the muslim texts. It is plain as day. |
Which Muslim texts would these be exactly? |
Wow! Thepeel was very mild in his criticism of the above.
Islam is a death cult whose adherents believe a pedophile was the descendant of a cruel and barbarous maniac running a worthless and contemptible stalinist regime in Heaven (and the book where this is documented is infallible). The moderates who do not subscribe to the Quran being infallible appear to be a tiny and westernized minority (indeed, even a minority of those living in the West by choice). Every civilized person needs to expose Islam to incessant, rigorous, painstaking criticism without negligence or omission.
To be silent is to consent. It's not a simplistic binary. Imagine you witnes a brutal murder. You could have called the cops and maybe it'd have prevented the murder or at least catch them in the act and bring them to justice. Instead, you do nothing. Were you as bad, morally, as the killers? No, you weren't, but your silence was of assistance to the killers and of contribution to the poor victim's death.
All the religions directly endorse fascism and Islam the worst of all, since it endorses totalitarian theocracies on Earth and in Heaven. People living in the West by choice need to leave those views in the vile craphole they couldn't wait to get out of, because here, we don't do totalitarianism. We fight wars against it. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 8:30 pm Post subject: |
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| thepeel wrote: |
| Multiculturalism is not possible with muslims. |
You ref high-profile Muslim fanatics in the present day, and I tend to agree with you. However, this view draws on a contested stereotype and some have shown how Muslims and Christians, and indeed a host of others, coexisted and interacted quite well with each other in past situations. Basically, it is possible. But other factors intervene and complicate the problem (Islamic extremism, for one; but Islam and Muslims are not extremist per se).
Ever read anything by William Dalrymple? I am increasingly persuaded by his views.
White Mughals |
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blade
Joined: 30 Jun 2007
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| Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 11:23 pm Post subject: |
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| thepeel wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Which Muslim texts would these be exactly? |
You haven't even read one word of the koran. Why discuss something that you know nothing about? I know, I know. You think it "intolerant" of me to be honest and just wanted to use the whole "every religion has extremists" nonsense. That argument died a long, long time ago.
Content matters. |
I'm still waiting for a proper answer to my question; so when you're ready please feel free to answer it.
Thanks,
Blade. |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 11:25 pm Post subject: |
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| If the "which texts" question is what you mean, then, the koran and various hadiths. |
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blade
Joined: 30 Jun 2007
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| Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 11:38 pm Post subject: |
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| thepeel wrote: |
| If the "which texts" question is what you mean, then, the koran and various hadiths. |
Well you're the one who mentioned the Muslim texts and I was hoping you'd be able to tell me which ones you were refering too and not merely the Koran in general. If you can't, then that's fine by me. |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 11:48 pm Post subject: |
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Sure. My suggestion was that muslims can't be at peace until everybody is either converted to islam or under dhimnitue.
Quran 9:29 � �Fight against such of those who have been given the scripture (Christians) as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by his messenger, and follow not the religion of Truth (Islam) until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low (admitting readily as low-down to Islam).�
In case it is an interpretation issue:
009.029
YUSUFALI: Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.
PICKTHAL: Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the Religion of Truth, until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low.
SHAKIR: Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Messenger have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/009.qmt.html#009.029
Here are some other nuggets of tolerance (a mere 60 of hundreds and hundreds):
1. Don't bother to warn the disbelievers. Allah has blinded them. Theirs will be an awful doom. 2:6
2. Allah has sickened their hearts. A painful doom is theirs because they lie. 2:10
3. Allah has blinded the disbelievers. 2:17-18
4. A fire has been prepared for the disbelievers, whose fuel is men and stones. 2:24
5. Disbelievers will be burned with fire. 2:39, 2:90
6. Allah stamped wretchedness upon the Jews because they killed the prophets and disbelieved Allah's revelations. 2:61
7. Only those Jews and Christians who convert to Islam will be rewarded with heaven. 2:62
8. Allah turned the Sabbath-breaking Jews into apes. 2:65-66
9. If you believe in only part of the Scripture, you will suffer in this life and go to hell in the next. 2:85
10. Allah has cursed them for their unbelief. 2:88
11. The curse of Allah is on disbelievers. 2:89
12. Jews are the greediest of all humankind. They'd like to live 1000 years. But they are going to hell. 2:96
13. Allah is an enemy to the disbelievers. 2:98
14. Only evil people are disbelievers. 2:99
15. For disbelievers is a painful doom. 2:104
16. For unbelievers: ignominy in this world, an awful doom in the next. 2:114
17. "And thou wilt not be asked about the owners of hell-fire." (They are the non-muslims.) 2:119
18. Disbelievers are losers. 2:121
19. Allah will leave the disbelievers alone for a while, but then he will compel them to the doom of Fire. 2:126
20. "Who forsaketh the religion of Abraham save him who befooleth himself?"
Cited in the Hamas Charter (Article 27) to condemn the idea of a secular state. 2:130
21. Those who reject the proofs, are accursed of Allah. 2:159
22. Those who die disbelievers, are cursed by Allah, angels, and men. 2:161
23. The doom of the disbelievers will not be lightened. 2:162
24. They will not emerge from the Fire. 2:167
25. Disbelievers will be deaf, dumb, and blind. 2:171
26. Those who hide the Scripture will have their bellies eaten with fire. Theirs will be a painful doom. 2:174
27. How constant are they in their strife to reach the Fire! 2:175
28. Believers must retaliate. Those who transgress will have a painful doom. 2:178
29. Kill disbelievers wherever you find them. If they attack you, then kil them. Such is the reward of disbelievers. (But if they desist in their unbelief, then don't kill them.) 2:191-2
30. Fight them until "religion is for Allah." 2:193
31. Those who fail in their duty to Allah are proud and sinful. They will all go to hell. 2:206
32. War is ordained by Allah, and all Muslims must be willing to fight, whether they like it or not. 2:216
33. Those who die in their disbelief will burn forever in the Fire. 2:217
34. Intermarriage is forbidden. 2:221
35. The disbelievers, they are the wrong-doers. 2:254
36. Disbelievers worship false gods. The will burn forever in the Fire. 2:257
37. Allah does not guide disbelievers. 2:264
38. "Give us victory over the disbelieving folk." 2:286
39. Those who disbelieve the revelations of Allah, theirs will be a heavy doom. 3:4
40. Those who disbelieve will be fuel for the Fire. 3:10
41. Those who disbelieve shall be overcome and gathered unto Hell. 3:12
42. Non-muslims will be punished by Allah for their nonbelief. 3:19
43. Those who disbelieve, promise them a painful doom. 3:21
44. "They [Christians and Jews] say: The Fire will not touch us save for a certain number of days. That which they used to invent hath deceived them regarding their religion." (The Fire will burn them forever.) 3:24
45. Let not the believers take disbelievers for their friends in preference to believers. 3:28
46. Allah loveth not the disbelievers. 3:32
47. Allah will punish disbelievers in this world and the next. They will have no helpers. 3:56
48. Don't believe anyone who is not a Muslim. 3:73
49. Theirs will be a painful doom. 3:77
50. All non-Muslims will be rejected by Allah after they die. 3:85
51. Disbelievers will be cursed by Allah, angels, and men. They will have a painful doom. 3:87-88
52. Disbelievers will have a painful doom. And they will have no helpers. 3:91
53. Disbelievers will have their faces blackened on the last day. They will face an awful doom. 3:105-6
54. Those who disbelieve will be burnt in the Fire. 3:116
55. Don't be friends with non-Muslims. They all hate you and want to ruin you. 3:118
56. The Fire is prepared for disbelievers. 3:131
57. Give us victory over the disbelieving folk. 3:147
58. We shall cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Their habitation is the Fire 3:151
59. "Is one who followeth the pleasure of Allah as one who hath earned condemnation from Allah, whose habitation is the Fire?"
Unbelievers will burn forever in the Fire. 3:162
60. Theirs will be an awful doom. 3:176
Any questions? |
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