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Kwangjuchicken
Joined: 01 Sep 2003
Location: I was abducted by aliens on my way to Korea and forced to be an EFL teacher on this crazy planet.
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 Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 11:04 am Post subject: |
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| philipjames wrote: |
We don't know if he opened a scroll in a synagogue and read from it. The person who wrote that almost certainly was not in the synagogue to witness it. None of the gospels were written by persons who had actually met the alleged Jesus. If they had, they would most certainly have stated that fact to bolster their case. So the scroll reading 'proof' of Jesus' literacy cannot be accepted in any way as actual proof.
But, even if I concede that Jesus was literate, the question remains. Why didn't he leave any writings? |
Check put your post time.
COINCIDENCE?
<*(((>< |
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Kwangjuchicken
Joined: 01 Sep 2003
Location: I was abducted by aliens on my way to Korea and forced to be an EFL teacher on this crazy planet.
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| Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 11:17 am Post subject: |
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| Kwangjuchicken wrote: |
| philipjames wrote: |
We don't know if he opened a scroll in a synagogue and read from it. The person who wrote that almost certainly was not in the synagogue to witness it. None of the gospels were written by persons who had actually met the alleged Jesus. If they had, they would most certainly have stated that fact to bolster their case. So the scroll reading 'proof' of Jesus' literacy cannot be accepted in any way as actual proof.
But, even if I concede that Jesus was literate, the question remains. Why didn't he leave any writings? |
Check put your post time.
COINCIDENCE?
<*(((>< |
And here is a question for you. Let's just look only on your maternel side.
Was your mother's mother's mother's mother's mother's mother's mother literate? You probably don't even know her name. I bet she did not even exist. If you do not have the name of your great great great great great grandmother, nor anything she wrote. Then it is simple to see. She was not literate, nor did she ever exist. I bet on your father's side, your great great great great great great grandfather also did not exist. |
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Kwangjuchicken
Joined: 01 Sep 2003
Location: I was abducted by aliens on my way to Korea and forced to be an EFL teacher on this crazy planet.
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| Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 11:19 am Post subject: |
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| Kwangjuchicken wrote: |
| Kwangjuchicken wrote: |
| philipjames wrote: |
We don't know if he opened a scroll in a synagogue and read from it. The person who wrote that almost certainly was not in the synagogue to witness it. None of the gospels were written by persons who had actually met the alleged Jesus. If they had, they would most certainly have stated that fact to bolster their case. So the scroll reading 'proof' of Jesus' literacy cannot be accepted in any way as actual proof.
But, even if I concede that Jesus was literate, the question remains. Why didn't he leave any writings? |
Check put your post time.
COINCIDENCE?
<*(((>< |
And here is a question for you. Let's just look only on your maternel side.
Was your mother's mother's mother's mother's mother's mother's mother literate? You probably don't even know her name. I bet she did not even exist. If you do not have the name of your great great great great great grandmother, nor anything she wrote. Then it is simple to see. She was not literate, nor did she ever exist. I bet on your father's side, your great great great great great great grandfather also did not exist. |
a 1004's work is never done.  |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 3:07 pm Post subject: |
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| mateomiguel wrote: |
| philipjames wrote: |
It's funny how, outside of the gospels (written by persons with their own agenda) there is no record of Jesus' existence whatsoever. This brave man had the honesty to point this out as early as the 1870s.
All History Ignores Him
http://members.cox.net/deleyd/religion/appendixd3.html |
yeah, if you ignore all non-secular sources. But then, since Jesus is a religious figure, all writings about him are automatically non-secular sources, and can therefore be safely ignored. With this bit of circular logic you can continue to say there is no evidence for Jesus' existence for the rest of your life! |
No. You're creating a strawman. No one says any record about a religious figure is automatically a religious work and then can't be trusted. Lots of Roman emperors were living gods but we don't discount historical records.
What one might distrust is when religious texts make it glaringly obvious the Jesus story was hammered to fit OT sources. |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 3:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Troll_Bait wrote: |
| Mass literacy is a modern phenomenon. These days, children are required, by law, to attend school until their mid- to late-teens, and a good number of them still end up functionally illiterate. |
But we're told as a child Jesus was lecturing Rabbis about the bible. Sure seems like Jesus was literate and capable of writing. |
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ED209
Joined: 17 Oct 2006
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| Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 3:15 pm Post subject: |
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| jindodog wrote: |
"Cornelius Tacitus, a well-known first century Roman historian, also mentioned Pontius Pilate in one if his well-known texts:
�Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus�� (Annales, Historiae, Chapter 15, paragraphs 54 and 55)
Not only does Tacitus mention Pontius Pilate outside the biblical record, but he mentions him in the historical context of Christ (Christus)." |
Though there are questions surrounding what Tacitus said or didn't say about Christ we know one thing, there were Christians, but this does not mean that they necessarily believed in a flesh and blood Christ and prowled the streets of Nazareth seeking out meek lepers, destitute blind folk or fallen women waiting to be stoned.
But not believing in miracles or Jesus been the son of God leaves us with(if he existed or not) a man as relevant as Robin Hood. |
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Troll_Bait
Joined: 04 Jan 2006
Location: [T]eaching experience doesn't matter much. -Lee Young-chan (pictured)
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| Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 3:32 pm Post subject: |
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| jindodog wrote: |
firstly, there are supposedly some roman records of jesus existing
"Cornelius Tacitus, a well-known first century Roman historian, also mentioned Pontius Pilate in one if his well-known texts:
�Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus�� (Annales, Historiae, Chapter 15, paragraphs 54 and 55)1
Not only does Tacitus mention Pontius Pilate outside the biblical record, but he mentions him in the historical context of Christ (Christus)."2 |
(Numbers are mine.)
1 Accurately describing the beliefs and rituals of followers of Zeus does not mean Zeus existed.
2 Homer (the Greek writer) accurately described historical places, people, and events. That doesn't mean we should believe him when he tells us about what Athena did. |
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Troll_Bait
Joined: 04 Jan 2006
Location: [T]eaching experience doesn't matter much. -Lee Young-chan (pictured)
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| Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 3:34 pm Post subject: |
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| mindmetoo wrote: |
| Troll_Bait wrote: |
| Mass literacy is a modern phenomenon. These days, children are required, by law, to attend school until their mid- to late-teens, and a good number of them still end up functionally illiterate. |
But we're told as a child Jesus was lecturing Rabbis about the bible. Sure seems like Jesus was literate and capable of writing. |
It's funny how he became literate considering that his earthly father was a carpenter, his mother was a homemaker, and schools didn't exist back then like they do now. Who taught him? |
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ED209
Joined: 17 Oct 2006
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| Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 3:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Troll_Bait wrote: |
It's funny how he became literate considering that his earthly father was a carpenter, his mother was a homemaker, and schools didn't exist back then like they do now. Who taught him? |
A Canaanite on a tourist visa |
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mistermasan
Joined: 20 Sep 2007
Location: 10+ yrs on Dave's ESL cafe
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| Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 3:44 pm Post subject: |
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| jeseus was a jew. jews have long placed emphasis on education. ever see a bar mitzvah? the youth goes up and reads before the community. kinda like being able to read is a prerequisite to the ceremonial rite of passage. |
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DHC
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 4:23 pm Post subject: |
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| The ignorance of some who post on this site is unbelievable. FYI,the Gospels of Matthew and John were written by two of Jesus' disciples who spent over 3 years with Him. Jesus is mentioned outside the Bible in writings of Roman and Jewish origin. Check out Evidence That Demands a Verdict by Josh McDowell or read works by CS Lewis. Both started out to prove that Jesus never existed but found overwhelming proof of His existence.[/b][/i] |
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mistermasan
Joined: 20 Sep 2007
Location: 10+ yrs on Dave's ESL cafe
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| Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 4:43 pm Post subject: |
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while we should never underestimate ignorance, the lack of scholarship for the average christian is sad. their bible has been mis-translated many times over. most western christians cannot read latin, much less the aramaic the new testament was written in.
if you can't read the original you must obey what someone is telling you it says. don't inquire. don't ask. just consume. and don't forget to tithe.
if jesus was but an average jew literacy wise he was light years ahead of his modern day followers. he could read the defining texts of his faith, judaism, in the original. what % of christians can claim the same? |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 9:29 pm Post subject: |
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| DHC wrote: |
| The ignorance of some who post on this site is unbelievable. FYI,the Gospels of Matthew and John were written by two of Jesus' disciples who spent over 3 years with Him. |
Really? I thought even the earliest one was written decades after the fact and authorship is only ascribed by tradition. Could you point me to your source?
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| Jesus is mentioned outside the Bible in writings of Roman and Jewish origin. |
Really? Saying "hey a group of jews believe in a jesus guy" 100 years after the fact isn't really evidence for jesus. Could you provide a source? |
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Ryst Helmut
Joined: 26 Apr 2003
Location: In search of the elusive signature...
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| Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 11:01 pm Post subject: |
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| mindmetoo wrote: |
| Really? Saying "hey a group of jews believe in a jesus guy" 100 years after the fact isn't really evidence for jesus. Could you provide a source? |
http://powerflv.com/?cat=Documentaries&subcat=Case%2BFor%2BChrist%252C%2BThe
I watched this quite some time ago, but I believe scholars have proven (well, enough for some but maybe not others) Jesus of Nazareth's existence.
The documentary is about an hour long...I think.
!shoosh,
Ryst |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 11:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Ryst Helmut wrote: |
| mindmetoo wrote: |
| Really? Saying "hey a group of jews believe in a jesus guy" 100 years after the fact isn't really evidence for jesus. Could you provide a source? |
http://powerflv.com/?cat=Documentaries&subcat=Case%2BFor%2BChrist%252C%2BThe
I watched this quite some time ago, but I believe scholars have proven (well, enough for some but maybe not others) Jesus of Nazareth's existence.
The documentary is about an hour long...I think.
!shoosh,
Ryst |
Could you summarize the three lines of argument you found most compelling? |
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