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Plot to Kill Danish Cartoonist foiled
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Justin Hale

Joined: 24 Nov 2007
Location: the Straight Talk Express

Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 5:45 pm Post subject:

jkelly80 wrote:

Everyone is aware of what goes in these societies, and it's horrible, but you're making it out to be a cultural apocalypse, which is flat out ridiculous.

Well, what was your original assertion?

What needs to proven here is that Islamist thought is a natural outgrowth of Muslim theology, and also that it is the lone valid interpretation of this theology. Also, that the Koran and Hadith are substantially more hateful and divisive than the Torah and New Testament, also taking into account the Apocryphal and Gnostic gospels.

Peel answered that most ('the vast majority of' would've been the way I put it) Muslims simply believe the book to be absolutely trustworthy, sure, unfailing in effectiveness and operation, chronicling their 6th Century lunatic and celestial genocidal dictator whom they believe in and worship, and urging that believers in other deities (or none) to be burned with fire.

jkelly80

Joined: 13 Jun 2007
Location: you boys like mexico?

Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 6:24 pm Post subject:

Justin Hale wrote:

jkelly80 wrote:

Everyone is aware of what goes in these societies, and it's horrible, but you're making it out to be a cultural apocalypse, which is flat out ridiculous.

You have yet to provide any evidence as to how you know what "most" or "vast majority of" Muslims believe, beyond a vague assertion that has neither evidence nor methodology to back it up. And you've yet to provide any compelling argument as to why the Islamist interpretation is the only possible result of the Koran and the Hadith. As Kuros noted earlier, prevailing trends and thinkers within Muslim theology have certainly contributed to a winnowed philosophical mindset, but to frame this development as inevitable sounds entirely too simplistic to me.

According to your logic I can point to these jerkoffs and their quoting of Leviticus. Then I can just say "a lot Christians believe this," but that would be over reductive and stupid, wouldn't it?

thepeel

Joined: 08 Aug 2004

Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 7:03 pm Post subject:

jkelly80 wrote:

Everyone is aware of what goes in these societies, and it's horrible, but you're making it out to be a cultural apocalypse, which is flat out ridiculous.

I don't think it will be a cultural apocalypse. At least not for us. A couple European states might submit but the backlash against islam is going to be stunning. That is the ultimate irony.

Kuros

Joined: 27 Apr 2004

Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 7:12 pm Post subject:

jkelly80 wrote:

According to your logic I can point to these jerkoffs and their quoting of Leviticus. Then I can just say "a lot Christians believe this," but that would be over reductive and stupid, wouldn't it?

Ha ha, yes but that's *exactly* the kind of mindset Justin Hale embodies.

chris_J2

Joined: 17 Apr 2006
Location: From Brisbane, Au.

Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 7:18 pm Post subject:

From what I have read, Armageddon is supposed to be a final confrontation, between Islam & Christianity in Israel. Armageddon is a real place, north west of Jerusalem. Both the Koran & Bible have almost identical references to it. Egypt will allegedly be the leader of the Pan Arabic / Islamic League. Russia will back the Islamic States. But much of the Bible & Koran are both pretty cryptic, & perhaps as meaningful as Nostradamus? Very much depends on your personal interpretation &/or faith.

thepeel

Joined: 08 Aug 2004

Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 7:27 pm Post subject:

jkelly80 wrote:

You have yet to provide any evidence as to how you know what "most" or "vast majority of" Muslims believe, beyond a vague assertion that has neither evidence nor methodology to back it up.

This is the last stand for the multicultural types. No longer can they defend islam, but now all they have is "well, muslims don't really believe the koran anyways". Of course, this is the assertion that has no evidence what so ever (where are those pro-reform demonstrations?) but makes white people feel good regardless.

Justin Hale

Joined: 24 Nov 2007
Location: the Straight Talk Express

Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 7:34 pm Post subject:

jkelly80 wrote:

Strict, conservative Saudi-based Wahhabism (or Salafism) teaches that Muslims should reject absolutely any non-Muslim ideas and practices, including political ones. In its harshest form, it preached that Muslims should not only always oppose infidels in every way, but "hate them for their religion ... for Allah's sake," that democracy is responsible for all the horrible wars of the 20th century, that Shia and other non-Wahhabi Muslims were infidels. Not all Muslims converted to the Wahhabist interpretation of Islam, but it has done much to overwhelm more moderate local interpretations, and has set the Saudi-interpretation of Islam as the "gold standard" of religion in Muslims' minds.

Osama Bin Laden was most offended by the fact that American troops were in his former home nation.

Evidence? You could try SAUDI PUBLICATIONS ON HATE IDEOLOGY INVADE AMERICAN MOSQUES, which paints a fairly clear picture.

Jkelly80 wrote:

According to your logic I can point to these jerkoffs and their quoting of Leviticus. Then I can just say "a lot Christians believe this," but that would be over reductive and stupid, wouldn't it?

Them's true Christians. Unlike moderates, who pick and choose arbitrarily, they have the most internally consistent, most evidenced interpretation of the Bible.

jkelly80

Joined: 13 Jun 2007
Location: you boys like mexico?

Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 8:33 pm Post subject:

Justin Hale wrote:

jkelly80 wrote:

Jkelly80 wrote:

According to your logic I can point to these jerkoffs and their quoting of Leviticus. Then I can just say "a lot Christians believe this," but that would be over reductive and stupid, wouldn't it?

Them's true Christians. Unlike moderates, who pick and choose arbitrarily, they have the most internally consistent, most evidenced interpretation of the Bible.

Let's try it again:

I wrote:

You have yet to provide any evidence as to how you know what "most" or "vast majority of" Muslims believe, beyond a vague assertion that has neither evidence nor methodology to back it up.

jkelly80

Joined: 13 Jun 2007
Location: you boys like mexico?

Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 8:39 pm Post subject:

thepeel wrote:

jkelly80 wrote:

You have yet to provide any evidence as to how you know what "most" or "vast majority of" Muslims believe, beyond a vague assertion that has neither evidence nor methodology to back it up.

I personally have never defended Islam. Religions are foolish. There is a distinction to be made between moderate fools paying lips service because of community, history, interia, etc... and zealous fools whose rage is primarily a result of sexual repression. The reason why Christian societies are superior to Muslim ones is precisely because more Muslims don't say "well, we muslims don't really believe the koran anyways". Also, our young men are usually more sexually satisfied. Never discount that.

thepeel

Joined: 08 Aug 2004

Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 9:25 pm Post subject:

Sexual frustration plays a very large role in muslim aggression. You're right. The whole 72 virgins thing is deliberate, as is the kkk costume the women wear.

Justin Hale

Joined: 24 Nov 2007
Location: the Straight Talk Express

Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 10:18 pm Post subject:

jkelly80 wrote:

Let's try it again:

I wrote:

You have yet to provide any evidence as to how you know what "most" or "vast majority of" Muslims believe, beyond a vague assertion that has neither evidence nor methodology to back it up.

'Most A believe X' is an axiom, a self-evident truth that requires no proof and is in any case unprovable. Most Muslims believe the Koran is literally, infallibly true is a proposition that is assumed without proof for the sake of studying the consequences that follow from it. Clearly a requirement of 'most Muslims believe X' is to know the minds and thoughts of all Muslim subjects a priori which, whilst theoretically possible (we could ask every single Muslim on the planet 'Is the Koran infallible and literal?') but that's laborious. The question is, is this axiom appropriate for everyday conversation like on this board? Or are the requirements the same as for a person delivering a presentation at the UN? What we've got to do is use common sense and read detailed papers like the one in my previous post. Consequently, we discover Saudi fundamentalism is the gold standard of Islam and Muslims to a not inconsiderable extent believe their book to be literally, infallibly true. Let's have a look at some quotes from that study:

Quote:

METHODOLOGY

Bin Baz is famously remembered by many Saudis for a ruling he issued in 1966 declaring the world flat. He was also responsible for the fatwa, unique in Islam, barring Saudi women from driving. His fatwas, which carry considerable weight, have been circulated through official Saudi diplomatic channels to mosques and schools throughout the world, including some in the United States, and have been particularly influential in radicalizing Muslim youth at home and abroad.

The 9/11 Commission Report observed, such �Saudi-funded Wahhabi schools are often the only Islamic schools" [in the US]

Quote:

FOREWORD
R. James Woolsey*

As a result, this Wahhabi sect, which would have been regarded as recently as fifty years ago as an austere, fringe group by a large majority of Muslims, is now extremely powerful and influential in the Muslim world due to Saudi government support and the oil wealth of the Arabian peninsula.

Bernard Lewis points out that throughout most of the history of Islam in most parts of the Muslim world, Muslims have generally been more tolerant than many other religions � Jews and Christians, as "People of the Book", were dealt with especially tolerantly. Today in the Kingdom, however, young people are systematically infused with hostility for �infidels.� Moreover, most young Saudis are not equipped when they graduate from school to perform the jobs necessary to operate a modern economy. Instead many are employed, if that is the right word, as, e.g., religious police � walking the streets to harass women whose veils may not fully cover their faces, for example. Young Saudis� anger based on their lack of useful work and their indoctrination is palpable. It is not an accident that 15 of the 19 terrorists who attacked us on September 11 were Saudis. The New York Times (January 27, 2002) cited a poll conducted by Saudi Intelligence, and shared with the U.S. government, that over 95% of Saudis between the ages of 25 and 41 have sympathy for Osama bin Laden. Whether this report from the Saudi government of their young adults� views is accurate or distorted, it makes an important point about hostility to us, either by the government, the people, or both.

The Saudi-funded, Wahhabi-operated export of hatred for us reaches around the globe. It is well known that the religious schools of Pakistan that educated a large share of the Taliban and al Qaeda are Wahhabi. But Pakistan is not the sole target. I had in my office recently a moderate Muslim leader from an Asian country. He was in the U.S., seeking to obtain funds from foundations, so that he could have printed elementary school textbooks to compete with the Wahhabi-funded textbooks that are flooding his country and that are being made available to schools at little or no cost. The Wahhabi textbooks in his country, like textbooks in Saudi Arabia, teach that it is the obligation of all Muslims to consider all infidels the enemy. As an illustration of the consequences of such teaching, I have heard that in some cases during the fighting in Bosnia in the early nineties, American churches and synagogues that were raising funds for food and other aid for the Bosnian Muslims would approach local mosques and suggest a cooperative effort. On a number of occasions they were turned down and didn�t understand why.

reason was that for a Wahhabi Imam (and Sheikh Kabbani, perhaps the U.S.�s leading moderate Muslim leader, says that a substantial percentage of American mosques have Wahhabi-funded Imams), it is normally not believed to be permissible for Muslims to work with infidels, even if the purpose is to help Muslims.

Quote:

I. CHRISTIANS, JEWS AND OTHER �INFIDELS�

The opening question in the embassy-distributed booklet, entitled �Rulings for Travelers and Emigrants� captures the extreme intolerance of the Saudi ideology. The fatwa responds to a question that seeks clarity regarding a Muslim preacher in an unspecified mosque in Europe who �claims in a study of his that declaring Jews and Christians infidels is not allowed.� The Saudi state cleric�s reply rebukes the unnamed European cleric: �He who casts doubts about their infidelity leaves no doubt about his own infidelity� [Document No. 52]. This condemnation of tolerant Muslims also appears in the religious edicts of Saudi Arabia�s Permanent Committee for Scientific Research and the Issuing of Fatwas, collected from the Masjid Abu Bakr mosque in San Diego: �[T]he one who does not call the Jews and the Christians unbelievers is himself an unbeliever� [Document No. 2].

At a minimum, Wahhabi hardliners delegitimize and intimidate their Muslim opponents by labeling them as �infidels� or �apostates.�

Quote:

VI. JIHAD IDEOLOGY

Wahhabi writings emphasize the obligatory nature of the purification that jihad produces, whether it be in overcoming external enemies, or perfecting the inner self. To Be a Muslim [Document No. 31], published by Saudi Arabia�s International Islamic Publishing House and gathered from the Al-Farouq Mosque in Houston, Texas, exhorts Muslims to work for the establishment of �functionally Islamic governments� in all nations:
�[Muslims should work] to form a society that is committed to the Islamic way of thinking and Islamic way of life, which means to form a government that implements principles of justice embodied in the shari�a�.Until the nations of the world have functionally Islamic governments, every individual who is careless or lazy in working for Islam is sinful.� [Document No. 31]

Quote:

VII. SUPPRESSION OF WOMEN

The extremes to which Saudi Arabia goes was demonstrated in a 2002 tragedy when the Saudi religious police caused fifteen Saudi girls to burn to death after their school in Mecca had caught fire. The mutawa�a forced the girls to remain in the burning building rather than run outside without the correct �Islamic� covering. The police were then exonerated by the Saudi government. For Wahhabis, women must be kept in check and under careful scrutiny at all times lest they become occasions�deliberate or unintended�for the enticement of men and thus the sowing of confusion and anarchy in society. It is as though in their very nature women are under continuous suspicion of creating the conditions for unraveling familial and social bonds, and must therefore be hemmed in and watched at all times.
The Saudi government works to indoctrinate American Muslims in these views of women.

jkelly80

Joined: 13 Jun 2007
Location: you boys like mexico?

Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 9:31 am Post subject:

Justin Hale wrote:

jkelly80 wrote:

Let's try it again:

I wrote:

You have yet to provide any evidence as to how you know what "most" or "vast majority of" Muslims believe, beyond a vague assertion that has neither evidence nor methodology to back it up.

There is certainly a huge amount of psychos within Islam, granted. But are they a majority? And are they tolerated because the US/Israel is a convenient target for their anger rather than internally? You might not think you have to back a statement like that with facts, but I do.

thepeel

Joined: 08 Aug 2004

Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 9:47 am Post subject:

If they are a majority will differ from state to state. In Saudi, yes. 1 million times yes. In Malaysia, maybe 50%. In the new state of Kosovo, prolly not. But, for the nutters to dominate they only have to be more willing to use violence than the "moderates". Look at the actual vocal moderates... They are almost all in hiding.

The reason that we don't hear from muslim moderates is because faithful muslims kill them (or threaten to). For example, the hyper-liberal (for islam) Muslim Canadian Congress had a thoughtful, liberal, forward and progressive thinking leader named Tarek Fatah.

Wanna guess why he lives in hiding?

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2007/03/22/muslim-threat.html

Quote:

Death threat lobbed at Muslim group promoting moderate beliefs
Last Updated: Thursday, March 22, 2007 | 12:24 AM ET
CBC News

A moderate Muslim group that called for a separation of religion and state in a recent documentary has received a pointed death threat.

The Muslim Canadian Congress received the message Tuesday morning. It was left on the Toronto telephone of secretary general Munir Pervaiz.

"I swear on 99 names of Allah, if you don't cease from your campaign of smearing Islam � I will slaughter you," the unidentified caller said.

Toronto police and its hate-crime unit are investigating.

The message was addressed to congress president Farzana Hassan and founder Tarek Fatah, and mentioned Allah's name three times in a row.

"It is scary," Pervaiz told CBC News on Wednesday.
Continue Article

"This is the first time that someone is really swearing in the name of God and it appears that person is taking an oath by announcing the name of God three times."
'Proves problem exists'

Pervaiz said the accusation of smearing Islam is a serious one, an offence that some Muslims believe is worthy of punishment.

The death threat comes after the Muslim Canadian Congress took part in a documentary that aired on CBC News on March 6. The piece examined the divides between secular and fundamental beliefs within the Canadian Muslim community.

The congress has been targeted for its moderate beliefs before, but never in such a direct fashion, Pervaiz said. Members have had their homes and cars damaged after sharing their opinions publicly.

"We want as many people to know that such a problem exists in Canada," Pervaiz said. "People thought we were exaggerating, but this now kind of confirms and proves the problem exists."

Oh, Canada.

jkelly80

Joined: 13 Jun 2007
Location: you boys like mexico?

Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 9:09 pm Post subject:

thepeel wrote:

Saudi Arabia is a nation of looneys, agreed. The problem is that the autocratic Saudis are the most stable, so that's who we support. These guys don't have much use for moderate Muslims either and would just as soon send their Wahabi attack dogs against the US and Israel, and let the moderates find their own way in society or use them as scapegoats.

Justin Hale

Joined: 24 Nov 2007
Location: the Straight Talk Express

Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 12:51 am Post subject:

jkelly80 wrote:

There is certainly a huge amount of psychos within Islam, granted. But are they a majority?

I doubt very much the majority are psychos. However, I don't doubt at all that the majority believe the Koran to be infallibly true, since Muhammad was visited by the angel Gabriel, who informed Muhammad that he was the messenger of God. Allah is infallible, Muhammad is infallible on matters of prophecy, the Koran therefore is infallible. Muhammad is still perceived as the ultimate subject of emulation and sinless. I've never been given reason to believe that adherents to the contrary are anything other than a small, educated, Westernized minority and what's more, having met and taught Muslims in the West, my opinion is that the Koran being infallibly true is the majority view amongst Muslims living in the West.

Jkelly80 wrote:

And are they tolerated because the US/Israel is a convenient target for their anger rather than internally?

That's a good point.

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