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jkelly80
Joined: 13 Jun 2007
Location: you boys like mexico?
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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 Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 11:56 am Post subject: |
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| Czarjorge wrote: |
| Kuros wrote: |
| Czarjorge wrote: |
India's economy is growing even faster than China's. They're about a decade behind, but they're going tech heavy. Look what that did for Ireland. We may not go to war with India, but we will probably battle economically in the same way we did with Japan in the 80s.
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Hrmmmm, Japan.
Yes, the Japan everyone thought was taking over the economic world in the early 90s and fell into a decade-long economic slump.
A little tip: try not to undermine your argument with your own analogies. |
What are you talking about, Kuros? Are you even following the thread? And I get criticized for one off comments.
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Here's the thing. Everyone was talking big about Japan 20 years ago. Now everyone is talking big about China.
Few are looking at the fundamentals. Joo just displayed just one of China's many weaknesses. |
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Czarjorge
Joined: 01 May 2007
Location: I now have the same moustache, and it is glorious.
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| Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 1:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Yes, it was a valid argument and point to consider. The US economy surged ahead of Japan in part because people took the economic threat of Japan seriously. All our competitors have strengths and weaknesses, as do we. China has the advantage over the US when dealing with social problems of this magnitude because they are an autocratic society even with recent reforms. Democracy is unwieldy when dealing with change. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 5:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Czarjorge wrote: |
| China has the advantage over the US when dealing with social problems of this magnitude because they are an autocratic society even with recent reforms. Democracy is unwieldy when dealing with change. |
China's autocracy is slowing it down. It breeds corruption and it resists change. Furthermore, its oppressing the 4/5ths of the country that is not benefitting from Deng's 'Open Economic' policies. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 7:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Czarjorge wrote: |
| Kuros wrote: |
| Czarjorge wrote: |
India's economy is growing even faster than China's. They're about a decade behind, but they're going tech heavy. Look what that did for Ireland. We may not go to war with India, but we will probably battle economically in the same way we did with Japan in the 80s.
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Hrmmmm, Japan.
Yes, the Japan everyone thought was taking over the economic world in the early 90s and fell into a decade-long economic slump.
A little tip: try not to undermine your argument with your own analogies. |
What are you talking about, Kuros? Are you even following the thread? And I get criticized for one off comments.
For about ten-fifteen years Japan was an economic superpower and the US suffered economically because of it. . |
Being the number one economic superpower was suffering economically? |
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Czarjorge
Joined: 01 May 2007
Location: I now have the same moustache, and it is glorious.
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| Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 9:53 pm Post subject: |
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| It's all about how big the gap between number one and number two. Japan definitely closed that gap. |
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endo
Joined: 14 Mar 2004
Location: Seoul...my home
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| Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 10:07 pm Post subject: |
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| blaseblasphemener wrote: |
Since when is Indian religiously fractured? That's the first I've heard of that. They have the largest minority group in the world, 160,000,000 muslims, and it doesn't seem like much of a problem for them.
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 10:10 pm Post subject: |
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| blaseblasphemener wrote: |
| thepeel wrote: |
| blaseblasphemener wrote: |
| Since when is Indian religiously fractured? That's the first I've heard of that. They have the largest minority group in the world, 160,000,000 muslims, and it doesn't seem like much of a problem for them. |
Wow. Maybe give the subject a close examination. |
Okay.
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Religion in India
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
This article is about Republic of India's religious demographics. For religions originating in the Indian subcontinent, see Indian religions.
The religious demographics of the Republic of India show a predominance of Hinduism (an umbrella term which includes many sub-denominations), accounting for 80% of the population. The second largest religion is Islam (13%).
The other natively Indian religions, Buddhism, Jainism and Sikhism taken together account for less than 3%. About 2% of Indians adhere to Christianity. Zoroastrianism and Judaism have a centuries-long history in India; each has several thousand Indian adherents.
More than nine-tenths of Indians state that religion plays a key role in their lives.[1] Though inter-religious marriage is not widely practiced, Indians are generally tolerant of other religions and retain a secular outlook. Inter-community clashes have never found widespread support in the social mainstream, and it is generally perceived that its causes are political rather than ideological in nature. India's religious diversity extends to the highest levels of government; the Prime Minister of India is a Sikh, the President of India is a Hindu, Vice President of India is a Muslim and the chairperson of the ruling United Progressive Alliance (UPA) is a Christian. The Constitution of India declares the nation to be a secular republic that must uphold the right of citizens to freely worship and propagate any religion or faith.[2][3] |
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The naivet� of Western leftists is mother fuc.king stunning. |
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blaseblasphemener
Joined: 01 Jun 2006
Location: There's a voice, keeps on calling me, down the road, that's where I'll always be
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| Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 10:21 pm Post subject: |
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| thepeel wrote: |
| blaseblasphemener wrote: |
| thepeel wrote: |
| blaseblasphemener wrote: |
| Since when is Indian religiously fractured? That's the first I've heard of that. They have the largest minority group in the world, 160,000,000 muslims, and it doesn't seem like much of a problem for them. |
Wow. Maybe give the subject a close examination. |
Okay.
| Quote: |
Religion in India
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
This article is about Republic of India's religious demographics. For religions originating in the Indian subcontinent, see Indian religions.
The religious demographics of the Republic of India show a predominance of Hinduism (an umbrella term which includes many sub-denominations), accounting for 80% of the population. The second largest religion is Islam (13%).
The other natively Indian religions, Buddhism, Jainism and Sikhism taken together account for less than 3%. About 2% of Indians adhere to Christianity. Zoroastrianism and Judaism have a centuries-long history in India; each has several thousand Indian adherents.
More than nine-tenths of Indians state that religion plays a key role in their lives.[1] Though inter-religious marriage is not widely practiced, Indians are generally tolerant of other religions and retain a secular outlook. Inter-community clashes have never found widespread support in the social mainstream, and it is generally perceived that its causes are political rather than ideological in nature. India's religious diversity extends to the highest levels of government; the Prime Minister of India is a Sikh, the President of India is a Hindu, Vice President of India is a Muslim and the chairperson of the ruling United Progressive Alliance (UPA) is a Christian. The Constitution of India declares the nation to be a secular republic that must uphold the right of citizens to freely worship and propagate any religion or faith.[2][3] |
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The naivet� of Western leftists is mother fuc.king stunning. |
By all means, pick apart the Wiki article. I'm not an expert on India, never claimed to be. I just thought it seemed to operate relatively effectively considering it has such a large Muslim population, as well as Sikhs. There was strife in the 80s that I recall, of course the Air India bombing comes to mind. But, I hadn't heard that there was large scale unrest there. What events indicate to you that India is unstable or on the brink of large scale unrest and fractured? |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 10:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Czarjorge wrote: |
| It's all about how big the gap between number one and number two. Japan definitely closed that gap. |
Could you give a link that shows when they reached parity or close?
All the lists I see have the U.S ecomony (GDP) being 2-3 times the size of Japan's |
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Czarjorge
Joined: 01 May 2007
Location: I now have the same moustache, and it is glorious.
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| Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 10:55 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Czarjorge wrote: |
| It's all about how big the gap between number one and number two. Japan definitely closed that gap. |
Could you give a link that shows when they reached parity or close?
All the lists I see have the U.S ecomony (GDP) being 2-3 times the size of Japan's |
They never did. Japan is just too small to compete with the US, especially in reference to GDP. Japan, did however close the gap, as I said above, at least for awhile. And economic strenght is measured by a number of factors, not just GDP. Trade, growth rate, value of currency, all these things are taken into account.
Really, c'mon. I know it's unreasonable to expect a high level of intellectual debate on this forum, but the pseudo-intellectual red herrings are ridiculous. |
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visitorq
Joined: 11 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 5:58 am Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Czarjorge wrote: |
| It's all about how big the gap between number one and number two. Japan definitely closed that gap. |
Could you give a link that shows when they reached parity or close?
All the lists I see have the U.S ecomony (GDP) being 2-3 times the size of Japan's |
"Japan�s economy was once a world-beater. A prolonged period of rapid growth raised the country�s per capita GDP from less than 20 percent of the U.S. level in the early 1950s to within 20 percent by 1991. A mere two generations after defeat in World War II, Japan had emerged as the world�s second-largest economy and a major exporter of autos, consumer electronics, semiconductors and other advanced products."
http://www.dallasfed.org/research/eclett/2006/el0601.html
"by 1990 the land value of Greater Tokyo exceeded the total land value of the US by 20%. Japan was in fact by then the owner of about 10% of the US, by value - a minor investment in property, compared to the land value of Japan."
http://www.gold-eagle.com/editorials_05/joubert031106.html
"In terms of nominal GDP, Japan has the largest economy in Asia and second largest in the world. Economic growth in Asia since World War II to the 1990's had been concentrated in few countries of the Pacific Rim, and has spread more recently to other regions. In the late 80's and early 90's Japan's economy was almost as large as that of the rest of the continent combined. In 1995, Japan's economy nearly equalled the USA to tie the largest economy in the world for a day, after the Japanese currency reached a record high of 79 yen."
http://www.newscast.in/asia/asia.php
In terms of exports and cash surplus Japan is still an economic juggernaut. The domestic economy hasn't grown much since the bubble collapsed because most of the private banks got hit very hard by huge amounts of bad debt when the Nikkei collapsed, which basically had to be swept under the carpet and ignored. The result was near zero interest rates and much reduced consumer spending which stalled the economy for over a decade and is only now getting better. But that is domestic. In terms of trade Japanese firms are still kicking ass, and the surplus is the second biggest in the world after China. Just think Toyota and the like, they've got more cash in their coffers than they know what to do with, and invest a lot of it to stay on top. Japan Post is the single largest (recently) private fund in the world (it's where most Japanese keep their savings since the other banks are crap, and it's worth some stupid amount like $2 trillion).
Basically, despite their problems, the Japanese are still far from out of the picture.
Last edited by visitorq on Wed Feb 20, 2008 6:14 am; edited 1 time in total |
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vertical loser
Joined: 08 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 6:02 am Post subject: |
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| There are a lot of unknowns about China: very dodgy banking system (maybe up to 50% non-working loans), massive environmental probs, corruption, heavy top=down admin (v. inefficient), corruption, big wealth gap, rising inflation and so on. Factories are starting to close down in China, due to rising costs and the fact that they are now starting to ask employers to actually respect workers (damn those expensive human rights!). That huge bubble in the demographic will hit around 2035. With no social security system and a terrible health system (half the people can't afford to see a doctor), we better hope the banks hold up so all that cash they saved is worth something. Otherwise we have China meltdown - yet again. I hope to God it doesn't happen, but you'd be a fool to put all your eggs in the China basket. It's Chinese roulette. |
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visitorq
Joined: 11 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 6:46 am Post subject: |
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| vertical loser wrote: |
| There are a lot of unknowns about China: very dodgy banking system (maybe up to 50% non-working loans), massive environmental probs, corruption, heavy top=down admin (v. inefficient), corruption, big wealth gap, rising inflation and so on. Factories are starting to close down in China, due to rising costs and the fact that they are now starting to ask employers to actually respect workers (damn those expensive human rights!). That huge bubble in the demographic will hit around 2035. With no social security system and a terrible health system (half the people can't afford to see a doctor), we better hope the banks hold up so all that cash they saved is worth something. Otherwise we have China meltdown - yet again. I hope to God it doesn't happen, but you'd be a fool to put all your eggs in the China basket. It's Chinese roulette. |
Yeah I think many Chinese firms are very over-valued and based on nothing but speculation. Ex. After its stock market debut PetroChina, now by far the largest company in the world by market capitalization, became worth more than Exxon-Mobil, despite having only 1/4 the revenue of Exxon and less reserves. People are just assuming that it will grow to perform at a level where it is actually worth the insane investment being put into it, despite its being contingent on so many things that could go wrong (oil prices go up etc.) I think many Chinese stocks are inflated, and lots of people are investing money they don't have and making 'fortunes'.
Like any bubble, the growth is just way too much too fast to be based on real performance. I really don't think it can continue like that for long, it'll just over boil and lead to a huge collapse if they don't slow it way down (if they even can that is). |
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endo
Joined: 14 Mar 2004
Location: Seoul...my home
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| Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 6:57 am Post subject: |
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| thepeel wrote: |
| blaseblasphemener wrote: |
| thepeel wrote: |
| blaseblasphemener wrote: |
| Since when is Indian religiously fractured? That's the first I've heard of that. They have the largest minority group in the world, 160,000,000 muslims, and it doesn't seem like much of a problem for them. |
Wow. Maybe give the subject a close examination. |
Okay.
| Quote: |
Religion in India
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
This article is about Republic of India's religious demographics. For religions originating in the Indian subcontinent, see Indian religions.
The religious demographics of the Republic of India show a predominance of Hinduism (an umbrella term which includes many sub-denominations), accounting for 80% of the population. The second largest religion is Islam (13%).
The other natively Indian religions, Buddhism, Jainism and Sikhism taken together account for less than 3%. About 2% of Indians adhere to Christianity. Zoroastrianism and Judaism have a centuries-long history in India; each has several thousand Indian adherents.
More than nine-tenths of Indians state that religion plays a key role in their lives.[1] Though inter-religious marriage is not widely practiced, Indians are generally tolerant of other religions and retain a secular outlook. Inter-community clashes have never found widespread support in the social mainstream, and it is generally perceived that its causes are political rather than ideological in nature. India's religious diversity extends to the highest levels of government; the Prime Minister of India is a Sikh, the President of India is a Hindu, Vice President of India is a Muslim and the chairperson of the ruling United Progressive Alliance (UPA) is a Christian. The Constitution of India declares the nation to be a secular republic that must uphold the right of citizens to freely worship and propagate any religion or faith.[2][3] |
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The naivet� of Western leftists is mother fuc.king stunning. |
I'm more left than right, and I could see the insanity of blaseblasphemener comment.
So don't play the spectrum card, cause I can point out to you a lot of right wingers who lack perspective as well. |
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