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wannago
Joined: 16 Apr 2004
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 Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 1:53 am Post subject: |
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| nicholas_chiasson wrote: |
| -er...Japan...a country that had been military expanding since the Russo-Japanese War in the advent of the 20th century, had invaded Manchuria, and Korea, and was obviously posed to attack the phillipines and SE Asia, was FORCED into a war? |
You are correct in that they weren't necessarily "forced" into a war but rather the evil FDR put them in a position where they would either have to attack the U.S. or back down completely and FDR knew they wouldn't back down. In fact, the Japanese were an easy target because of their scarce natural resources (read oil) and this was the one way to get at the top priority through the back door, if you will...Germany. Gee, get involved in this massive war and just think what could happen with the economy! |
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ultra
Joined: 09 Nov 2007
Location: Book Han Gook Land Of Opportunity
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| Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 2:09 am Post subject: Re: did US know Japan attack was forthcoming circa 1941? |
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| mistermasan wrote: |
did the US know a Japanese attack was forthcoming in 1941?
www.independent.org/newsroom/article.asp?id=408
recounts the research done by a guy who first fought the war and then later via the FOIA act it delved into it.
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If you read the book discussed in the interview, "Day of Deceit" then there is no need to ask the question.
It is well documented and explained clearly in the book, and it has nothing to do with theory.
http://www.ebookmall.com/ebook/86250-ebook.htm
Pearl Harbor was no accident, says author Robert B. Stinnett. It was not a failure of American intelligence, or a Japanese military coup. It was initiated at the highest levels of our government. Eight steps were taken to make sure we would enter the war by this means, galvanizing the reluctant American public into action. Here is Stinnett's evidence. |
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Czarjorge
Joined: 01 May 2007
Location: I now have the same moustache, and it is glorious.
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| Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 5:19 am Post subject: |
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I will rephrase.
I believe it is accepted, and documented, that the Japanese sent a warning to FDR before the "sneak" attack. The message was "held up" and didn't get relayed to Pearl Harbor ahead of time. In college most history students and professors seemed to draw the conclusion that political expediency was the reason this information was "held up" as the US needed some tragedy to enter WWII, not just a failed attack. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 5:39 am Post subject: |
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| and the US only had to lose 2350 people while FDR and the government looked the other way literally waiting for the bombs to drop. The end justifies the means, right? |
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| I don't know if I would use traitor, but it comes close. I'm not convinced that FDR knew a date and time for the Pearl Harbor attack |
Your two quotes directly contradict each other. You should pick a side and stick to it.
The OP directly accuses FDR of knowing an attack was coming and deliberately letting the ships be sunk and the men killed. If that isn't aiding and abetting an enemy, I don't know what is. Benedict Arnold was a traitor for conspiring to turn over West Point to the British. If FDR knew what was alleged in the OP, then he is a traitor. |
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wannago
Joined: 16 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 7:05 am Post subject: |
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| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
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| and the US only had to lose 2350 people while FDR and the government looked the other way literally waiting for the bombs to drop. The end justifies the means, right? |
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| I don't know if I would use traitor, but it comes close. I'm not convinced that FDR knew a date and time for the Pearl Harbor attack |
Your two quotes directly contradict each other. You should pick a side and stick to it. |
No they don't. I believe FDR knew an attack was coming, but I don't think he knew the exact day and time. Regardless, he did nothing about it or allowed it to happen.
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| The OP directly accuses FDR of knowing an attack was coming and deliberately letting the ships be sunk and the men killed. If that isn't aiding and abetting an enemy, I don't know what is. Benedict Arnold was a traitor for conspiring to turn over West Point to the British. If FDR knew what was alleged in the OP, then he is a traitor. |
Well, you said it.
I was just trying to give you pro-FDR types some wiggle room, but you closed that off. I believe the evil FDR did untold damage to the government of the U.S. If you want to start talking about a long national nightmare, you should probably start in 1932. It has been a federal government out of control since then. But he sure did fix that economy, didn't he?? |
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jkelly80
Joined: 13 Jun 2007
Location: you boys like mexico?
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| Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 7:40 am Post subject: |
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| Hey everybody, FDR is evil, in case you can't read between the lines. |
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wannago
Joined: 16 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 8:44 am Post subject: |
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| jkelly80 wrote: |
| Hey everybody, FDR is evil, in case you can't read between the lines. |
He WAS evil. He's dead. You really didn't pay attention in school, did you? |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 9:09 am Post subject: |
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| Czarjorge wrote: |
| ...most history students and professors seemed to draw the conclusion that political expediency was the reason this information was "held up" as the US needed some tragedy to enter WWII, not just a failed attack. |
Nonsense. This is the New Left's position. Cite any mainstream American-history textbook that draws such conclusions or anything approaching it. |
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Czarjorge
Joined: 01 May 2007
Location: I now have the same moustache, and it is glorious.
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| Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 10:34 am Post subject: |
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| Where did you receive higher education that they used textbooks? |
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jkelly80
Joined: 13 Jun 2007
Location: you boys like mexico?
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| Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 10:58 am Post subject: |
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| wannago wrote: |
| jkelly80 wrote: |
| Hey everybody, FDR is evil, in case you can't read between the lines. |
He WAS evil. He's dead. You really didn't pay attention in school, did you? |
I think your confusing Bruce Campbell movies with reality. FDR was never in the Evil Dead, nor was his likeness ever used.
Are you six years old, or is that as far as your nuance meter matured to? |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 11:12 am Post subject: |
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| Czarjorge wrote: |
| Where did you receive higher education that they used textbooks? |
This is rich, indeed. Where did you receive higher education where the instructors did not assign textbooks? What is "a textbook" to you anyway? In your undergrad experience, you only read articles, monographs, and novels? Laughable.
This notwithstanding, I do not really care to argue this point. Cite your sources on Pearl Harbor.
Mine? I just consulted with a nationally-eminent historian of foreign affairs in his office. He calls yours "the crank position." Check out Roberta Wohlstetter's Pearl Harbor: Warning and Decision (1962) for a still very solid look at the bureaucratic intelligence-reporting problems I ref, above. And the mainstream position is that the American govt and military understood that war was coming. But they did not know exactly when and where (they were bracing for an attack against P.I.). The longrange carrier-based strike against Pearl Harbor took everyone by surprise -- as the Japanese intended. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 2:58 pm Post subject: |
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So, wannago, you admit you are such a true believing Kool-Aid drinker on FDR that you are willing to sit by and have him accused of being a traitor by the OP in an attempt to score points in another area. Is it because it would make your world not so clearly black and white and that's more nuance than your world-view can handle?
It wouldn't hurt to keep in mind that the Japanese themselves knew attempting a sneak attack more than half-way across the Pacific was a very long shot deal.
Your constant ranting about needing a war to get out of the Depression is tiresome. World War II was just a bit more complex than that, and involved things just a bit less centered on American domestic economic policy. A word of advice: Take your head out of where you are currently keeping it and put it back on top of your shoulders. You might gain some perspective. |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 5:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Czarjorge wrote: |
I will rephrase.
I believe it is accepted, and documented, that the Japanese sent a warning to FDR before the "sneak" attack. The message was "held up" and didn't get relayed to Pearl Harbor ahead of time. In college most history students and professors seemed to draw the conclusion that political expediency was the reason this information was "held up" as the US needed some tragedy to enter WWII, not just a failed attack. |
1. You believe wrong.
Former Japanese Ambassador Takeo Iguchi speaks about Pearl Harbor
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What was to pass for an ultimatum was Japan�s Final Memorandum to the United States, a message that did not include any specific wording regarding the use of armed forces. Furthermore, while the message was meant to be sent a half hour before the attack on Pearl Harbor, a tangled-up delay resulted in the memorandum not actually being delivered until 20 minutes after the attack had already occurred. Iguchi�s studies have delved into the mystery surrounding this delay.
The reason for the lapse, Iguchi found, is that the Japanese military �thwarted� the Ministry�s initial plans to abide by set procedure. The military was against �any clear-cut announcement of force,� Iguchi said, �since it might jeopardize their military plan for a successful operation.�
It was only through the exploration of previously undisclosed documents that Iguchi could reach such conclusions. In 1998 Iguchi uncovered a particularly telling document, called �Confidential War Diary,� which Iguchi noted has not been published by any military historians despite its immense historical value. Inside, a member of the Imperial Headquarters� Army General Staff had written on Dec. 2, 1941, �The U.S. is not yet aware of Japan�s true intent. Success of surprise attack is not to be doubted.� |
and if you want another source, here is a rather detailed summary of events leading up to Pearl Harbor:
Chapter 7 of Guarding the United States and its Outposts, published by the Center of Military History, US Army.
2. What students and what professors? |
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wannago
Joined: 16 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 1:12 am Post subject: |
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| jkelly80 wrote: |
| wannago wrote: |
| jkelly80 wrote: |
| Hey everybody, FDR is evil, in case you can't read between the lines. |
He WAS evil. He's dead. You really didn't pay attention in school, did you? |
I think your confusing Bruce Campbell movies with reality. FDR was never in the Evil Dead, nor was his likeness ever used.
Are you six years old, or is that as far as your nuance meter matured to? |
This means so much coming from you. |
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wannago
Joined: 16 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 1:34 am Post subject: |
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| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
| So, wannago, you admit you are such a true believing Kool-Aid drinker on FDR that you are willing to sit by and have him accused of being a traitor by the OP in an attempt to score points in another area. Is it because it would make your world not so clearly black and white and that's more nuance than your world-view can handle? |
Here, let me see if I can put this in language you can understand:
Dude. WTF are you talking about? You need to lay off the reefer, dude.
I'm not willing to "sit by" and have him accused of anything. The history speaks for itself. People can come to their own conclusions. And, seriously, what points in another area are you talking about? I believe FDR was a bad president for creating this mess of a federal government we have now and then allowing the country to get sucked into a massive war to fix the economy. Why do you have a problem with that? Is your lefty brain so intolerant of other opinions about your god FDR?
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| It wouldn't hurt to keep in mind that the Japanese themselves knew attempting a sneak attack more than half-way across the Pacific was a very long shot deal. |
You don't say. The only problem is they didn't do a very good job of keeping it sneaky.
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| Your constant ranting about needing a war to get out of the Depression is tiresome. World War II was just a bit more complex than that, and involved things just a bit less centered on American domestic economic policy. |
Yes, it may be tiresome....but its also true. If you really think that there was no thought of repairing the American economy on FDR's mind when he let the Japanese bomb Pearl Harbor unchallenged, then you are more naive than the students I teach. He had failed to right the economic ship in 8 years, and this was the one way to do it. I find it incredible that you whine about Americans lost in Iraq (rightly so) and disregard Americans lost in this war about economics...actually I do believe it coming from you and other lefty FDR worshipers.
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| A word of advice: Take your head out of where you are currently keeping it and put it back on top of your shoulders. You might gain some perspective. |
My advice to you: Pull your head out of the green haze and come back to Earth. Sadly, it may be too late. |
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