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		| arjuna 
 
  
 Joined: 31 Mar 2007
 
 
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				|  Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 11:32 pm    Post subject: |   |  
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				| Rigged Trials at Gitmo 
 By Ross Tuttle
 
 http://www.thenation.com/doc/20080303/tuttle
 
 Secret evidence. Denial of habeas corpus. Evidence obtained by waterboarding. Indefinite detention. The litany of complaints about the treatment of prisoners at Guant�namo Bay is long, disturbing and by now familiar. Nonetheless, a new wave of shock and criticism greeted the Pentagon's announcement on February 11 that it was charging six Guant�namo detainees, including alleged 9/11 mastermind Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, with war crimes--and seeking the death penalty for all of them.
 
 Now, as the murky, quasi-legal staging of the Bush Administration's military commissions unfolds, a key official has told The Nation that the trials have been rigged from the start. According to Col. Morris Davis, former chief prosecutor for Guant�namo's military commissions, the process has been manipulated by Administration appointees to foreclose the possibility of acquittal.
 
 Colonel Davis's criticism of the commissions has been escalating since he resigned in October, telling the Washington Post that he had been pressured by politically appointed senior Defense officials to pursue cases deemed "sexy" and of "high interest" (such as the 9/11 cases now being pursued) in the run-up to the 2008 elections. Davis, once a staunch defender of the commissions process, elaborated on his reasons in a December 10, 2007, Los Angeles Times op-ed. "I concluded that full, fair and open trials were not possible under the current system," he wrote. "I felt that the system had become deeply politicized and that I could no longer do my job effectively."
 
 
 Then, in an interview with The Nation in February after the six Guant�namo detainees were charged, Davis offered the most damning evidence of the military commissions' bias--a revelation that speaks to fundamental flaws in the Bush Administration's conduct of statecraft: its contempt for the rule of law and its pursuit of political objectives above all else.
 
 When asked if he thought the men at Guant�namo could receive a fair trial, Davis provided the following account of an August 2005 meeting he had with Pentagon general counsel William Haynes--the man who now oversees the tribunal process for the Defense Department.
 
 "[Haynes] said these trials will be the Nuremberg of our time," recalled Davis, referring to the Nazi tribunals in 1945, considered the model of procedural rights in the prosecution of war crimes. In response, Davis said he noted that at Nuremberg there had been some acquittals, which had lent great credibility to the proceedings.
 
 "I said to him that if we come up short and there are some acquittals in our cases, it will at least validate the process," Davis continued. "At which point, [Haynes's] eyes got wide and he said, 'Wait a minute, we can't have acquittals. If we've been holding these guys for so long, how can we explain letting them get off? We can't have acquittals. We've got to have convictions.'"
 
 Davis submitted his resignation on October 4, 2007, just hours after he was informed that Haynes had been put above him in the commissions' chain of command. "Everyone has opinions," Davis says. "But when he was put above me, his opinions became orders."
 
 Reached for comment, Defense Department spokeswoman Cynthia Smith said, "The Department of Defense disputes the assertions made by Colonel Davis in this statement regarding acquittals."
 
 "The fact that [Haynes] said there can be no acquittals will stain the entire [tribunal] process," says Scott Horton, who teaches law at Columbia University Law School and has written extensively about Haynes's conflicts with the Judge Advocate General's (JAG) corps, the judicial arm of the armed forces, which is charged with implementing the military commissions. According to Horton, Haynes tried to cut the JAG corps out of internal debates over the detention and prosecution of detainees, knowing it was critical of the Administration's views. In private memos and in public Senate testimony, high-ranking officers of the corps have repeatedly expressed concerns about the Administration's justification of "extreme interrogation techniques."
 
 "The JAG corps consists of a group of rigorous professionals, but Haynes never trusted them to do their job," says Horton. "His clashes have always had the same subtext--they want to be independent; he wants them to do political dirty work."
 
 Haynes, a political appointee and chief legal adviser to Defense secretaries Donald Rumsfeld and Robert Gates, was nominated in 2006 by the Bush Administration for a lifetime seat as a judge in the Court of Appeals for the Fourth Circuit. But his nomination never got out of committee, primarily because of the opposition of Republican Senator (and former military lawyer) Lindsey Graham and other members alarmed over Haynes's role in writing, or supervising the writing of, Pentagon memos advocating the use of harsh interrogation techniques the Geneva Conventions classify as torture.
 
 Currently, in his capacity as Pentagon general counsel, Haynes oversees both the prosecution and the defense for the Guant�namo commissions.
 
 "You would think a person in that position wouldn't be favoring one side," says Colonel Davis.
 
 Told of Davis's story about Haynes, Clive Stafford Smith, a defense attorney who has represented more than seventy Guant�namo clients, said, "Hearing it makes me think I'm back in Mississippi representing a black man in front of an all-white jury."
 
 He adds, "It confirms what people close to the system have always said," noting that when three prosecutors--Maj. Robert Preston, Capt. John Carr and Capt. Carrie Wolf--requested to be transferred out of the Office of Military Commissions in 2004, they said they'd been told the process was rigged. In an e-mail to his supervisors, Preston had said that there was thin evidence against the accused. "But they were told by the chief prosecutor at the time that they didn't need evidence to get convictions," says Stafford Smith.
 
 At the time, the military wrote it off as "miscommunication" and "personality conflicts." And then there were changes in personnel. "They told us that the system had been cleaned up...but I guess the more things change, the more they stay the same," says Stafford Smith.
 
 The terrible truth is that even if acquittals were possible, the government has declared that it can continue to detain anyone deemed an "enemy combatant" for the duration of hostilities--no matter the outcome of a trial. Most of the 275 men held at Guant�namo are classified as "enemy combatants," and the hostilities in the "war on terror" could be never-ending.
 
 Says ACLU staff attorney Ben Wizner, "The trial doesn't make a difference. They can hold you there forever until they decide to let you out." The one person to be released from Guant�namo through the judicial process, Australian David Hicks, pleaded guilty. As Wizner wrote in the Los Angeles Times in April 2007, "In an ordinary justice system, the accused must be acquitted to be released. In Guant�namo, the accused must plead guilty to be released."
 
 Still, the trials serve a purpose for the government by providing the semblance of a legitimate judicial process. According to defense attorneys involved--and many of the former prosecutors, like Davis--the process is political, not legal.
 
 "If someone was acquitted, then it would suggest we did the wrong thing in the first place. That can't happen," says Horton sardonically. "When the government decides to clear someone, it calls the person 'no longer an enemy combatant' instead of just saying they made a mistake."
 
 He adds, "For people like Haynes, justice is meant to serve the party."
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		| Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee 
 
  
 Joined: 25 May 2003
 
 
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				|  Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 12:38 am    Post subject: |   |  
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				| The worst thing about Gitmo is that Hizzbollah supporters aren't there along with Al Qaeda fighters. 
 
 
   
 
   
 
 Oh they are getting military trials . How sad.
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		| endo 
 
  
 Joined: 14 Mar 2004
 Location: Seoul...my home
 
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				|  Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 2:17 am    Post subject: |   |  
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				| Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee did you watch the documentary? 
 
 
 My God, I am pretty well read on the subject, but even that documentery shocked me.
 
 The ineptitude of President Bush and his administration is down right criminal.
 
 It's like they spent more time trying to justify the war then for actually planning for it.
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		| Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee 
 
  
 Joined: 25 May 2003
 
 
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				|  Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 2:21 am    Post subject: |   |  
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				| Didn't watch it yet. I plan to. 
 I am not disputing your claim.
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		| endo 
 
  
 Joined: 14 Mar 2004
 Location: Seoul...my home
 
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				|  Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 2:32 am    Post subject: |   |  
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	  | Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote: |  
	  | The worst thing about Gitmo is that Hizzbollah supporters aren't there along with Al Qaeda fighters. 
 
 
   
 
   
 
 Oh they are getting military trials . How sad.
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 Joo, come on man!
 
 If you're going to wage wars based on the sense that your value system (liberty and freedom) is superior to your enemies (facism and totalitarianism) then you can't be a hypocrite.
 
 If you're going to fight justice then you should offer it to your enemies no matter how much you despise them.
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		| Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee 
 
  
 Joined: 25 May 2003
 
 
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				|  Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 2:36 am    Post subject: |   |  
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				| If the US put all the Jihadists through the US system it would destroy the US system.The cost of a single trial including security would make it impossible. 
 For the record if the US justice system was good enough then why is it that it was the opinion of the Clinton administration that the US did not have enough evidence to convict Bin Laden in a US court.
 If the US had not worried about making sure Bin Laden had a fair trial the US would be better off today.
 
 They are getting justice and they are getting a fair trial.
 
 If you were to add up all those in Al Qaeda and connected groups and all those in Hizzbollah that would probably come to over 100,000.
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		| endo 
 
  
 Joined: 14 Mar 2004
 Location: Seoul...my home
 
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				|  Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 2:59 am    Post subject: |   |  
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	  | Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote: |  
	  | If the US put all the Jihadists through the US system it would destroy the US system. |  
 Well they're not even trying to capture all the Jihadists because that's such a vague term.
 
 They do have some in Guantamino and I see no reason why they can't prosecute them.
 
 
 
 
 
	  | Quote: |  
	  | The cost of a single trial including security would make it impossible. |  
 What cost of security?  What the hell are you talking about?
 
 If you have the trial on a military base, security shouldn't be a concern.
 
 
 
 
 
 
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	  | For the record if the US justice system was good enough then why is it that it was the opinion of the Clinton administration that the US did not have enough evidence to convict Bin Laden in a US court. |  
 Well perhaps they didn't.  And if they still don't have enough information to convict Bin Ladin then you have to ask yourself why?
 
 I mean if you really feel without a doubt that Bin Ladin was beide it all and were willing to send troops to their death, then damn right you better have some evidence.
 
 Just because it's the government, it doens't mean we should trust them no matter what.
 
 The founding fathers knew and wrote about this.
 
 
 It's un-American to not question your government!
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
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	  | If the US had not worried about making sure Bin Laden had a fair trial the US would be better off today. |  
 I disagree.  The United States would have further slipped into the area of facism.
 
 
 
 
 
 
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	  | They are getting justice and they are getting a fair trial. |  
 Fairly certin comment from someone who's not even involved in it all.  I think you need to work on your critical thinking skills.
 
 I'm not saying that everything the American government says is lies.  But at the same time we should never trust a government at face value.
 
 Money makes people lie.
 
 Power makes people lie.
 
 
 
 Checks and balance is what Democracy is all about.  Those willing to set them aside are encouraging the systems demise.
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		| Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee 
 
  
 Joined: 25 May 2003
 
 
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				|  Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 3:39 am    Post subject: |   |  
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				| [quote="endo"] 
 
	  | Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote: |  
	  | If the US put all the Jihadists through the US system it would destroy the US system. |  
 
 
 
	  | Quote: |  
	  | Well they're not even trying to capture all the Jihadists because that's such a vague term. 
 They do have some in Guantamino and I see no reason why they can't prosecute them.
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 because it is not only justice but also national security.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
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	  | What cost of security?  What the hell are you talking about? |  
 For the judges , and witnesses.
 
 It cost a  huge  of money just to put Robert Reid the shoe bomber away.
 
 If you have the trial on a military base, security shouldn't be a concern.
 
 
 
 
 
 
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	  | For the record if the US justice system was good enough then why is it that it was the opinion of the Clinton administration that the US did not have enough evidence to convict Bin Laden in a US court. |  
 
 
 
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	  | Well perhaps they didn't.  And if they still don't have enough information to convict Bin Ladin then you have to ask yourself why? |  
 They do know but they did not in 1996
 
 
 
 
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	  | I mean if you really feel without a doubt that Bin Ladin was beide it all and were willing to send troops to their death, then damn right you better have some evidence. 
 Just because it's the government, it doens't mean we should trust them no matter what.
 
 The founding fathers knew and wrote about this.
 
 
 It's un-American to not question your government!
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 I don't think it is about that , and for the record those who quesiton the government aren't above being questioned either.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
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	  | If the US had not worried about making sure Bin Laden had a fair trial the US would be better off today. |  
 
 
 
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	  | I disagree.  The United States would have further slipped into the area of facism. |  
 
 
 I think the answer is pretty clear. and probably 90% the population would too that the US would have been far off today . In fact most Americans would find it shocking that someone thinks the US did the correct thing by allowing Bin Laden to go to the Sudan.
 
 Even the Clinton administration was urging Saudi Arabia to execute Bin Laden for the US. Saudi Arabia didn't want Bin Laden so he went to the Sudan.
 
 
 
 I think the US would have been far better off if it had killed or thrown  Bin Laden and Khomeni into a secret prison.  Most Americans do. And not only the US but much of the world would have been better off if the US had.
 
 
 
 Had the US taken out Khomeni and Bin Laden there is a chance that the Shah doesn't fall and that Jihand international is a lot weaker.
 
 But I will take such a chance. I will accept the consequence of such a policy on my nation.
 
 the US used to do assassinations before the mid 70's and the US did ok.
 
 Even had the US taken out Khomeni and Bin Laden the US would not even be close to fascim. The US would still be one of the most free and tolerant nations in the world.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
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	  | They are getting justice and they are getting a fair trial. |  
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
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	  | Fairly certin comment from someone who's not even involved in it all.  I think you need to work on your critical thinking skills. |  
 
 
 [quote]They are getting justice and they are getting a fair trial compared to the recources avaible and national security concerns.
 
 
 
 
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	  | I'm not saying that everything the American government says is lies.  But at the same time we should never trust a government at face value. 
 Money makes people lie.
 
 Power makes people lie.
 
 
 
 Checks and balance is what Democracy is all about.  Those willing to set them aside are encouraging the systems demise.
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 The US used enemy combant rules in World War II . The US turned out ok.
 
 Lincoln lied about the US civil war. The US turned out ok.
 
 Last you live in South Korea with far more strict national security laws on the books that the US has. No one could reasonably  call South Korea fascist.
 
 Let me add that in a civilian trial witness get to learn how the US got the evidence on them.  That means the US would have to expose informants and the US would have to let the enemy know how it collects intelligence.
 
 Not good ideas in times of war.
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		| loose_ends 
 
 
 Joined: 23 Jul 2007
 
 
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				|  Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 7:28 am    Post subject: |   |  
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				| Wow... 
 Thanks for the link.
 
 The silence from those that chose not to be interviewed speaks volumes.  How far can one reasonably accept this is all gross incompetence?
 
 Has American foreign policy been hijacked?
 
 Any comments from those that still support US intentions in Iraq?
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		| yawarakaijin 
 
 
 Joined: 08 Aug 2006
 
 
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				|  Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 11:04 am    Post subject: |   |  
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				| A very nice documentary.  It's simply amazing how much of the story of Iraq goes untold.  How an entire war can be waged at the cost of thousands of a country's very finest and possibly hundreds of thousands of innocents with absolutely no care as to the management, suffering or result.  You wouldn't trust these men to lead a single platoon and yet you give them control of your entire country, absolutely shocking. 
 I ask a few questions to the Americans on this board, and it isn't meant to inflame or insult.  Do you  really care about what is being done over there in the name of your country?  Do you really feel to the loss of thousands of your very finest?  How has it affected you personally?  Do you wake up in the morning thinking "hey my country is in a war" or do you continue along your merry way, waiting for the democrats to make it all better?
 
 Some are going to say, "Hey, America is outraged.  We are finally gonna vote these bums out of office after 8 years."  Is that the best America  can do.?  (To quote the soldier at the end of the film.)
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		| stillnotking 
 
  
 Joined: 18 Dec 2007
 Location: Oregon, USA
 
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				|  Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 11:10 am    Post subject: |   |  
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	  | endo wrote: |  
	  | The ineptitude of President Bush and his administration is down right criminal. |  
 Actually, if it were truly ineptitude, it would be incredible rather than criminal.
 
 My credo in politics is "don't listen to what they say; look at what they do".  What has the Bush administration actually done in Iraq?  It has diverted a huge sum of taxpayer dollars into the coffers of Halliburton, Blackwater, and all the other vultures circling the Iraqi carcass.  It has reinforced the American electoral trope that we are the "indispensible nation" and furthered the national myth of a Pax Americana.  It has hardened American attitudes against the rest of the world and vice versa.  (Hey, they were all against the invasion, right?  Flush that French wine down the toilet, Marge!)
 
 The idea that all of this represents unintended consequences of the war is simply too much to swallow.  The Bush administration knew what they were doing when they invaded, and it had nothing to do with WMDs or promoting democracy or killing one unexceptional tyrant.
 
 "Criminal" remains the entirely correct adjective, though.
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		| stillnotking 
 
  
 Joined: 18 Dec 2007
 Location: Oregon, USA
 
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				|  Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 11:16 am    Post subject: |   |  
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	  | yawarakaijin wrote: |  
	  | Some are going to say, "Hey, America is outraged.  We are finally gonna vote these bums out of office after 8 years."  Is that the best America  can do.?  (To quote the soldier at the end of the film.) |  
 It's even worse than that.  We're not going to vote the bums out of office.  The head bum is ineligible to run again, and almost all of his bum enablers have been reelected and will be again this year.  The new head bum probably will not bring the troops home; I have slight hopes for the ability and inclination of Barack Obama to accomplish this belated necessity, but neither of the other remaining frontrunners would, you may be sure.
 
 As for "voting Democrat": ha.  Talk about the least you can do.
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		| stillnotking 
 
  
 Joined: 18 Dec 2007
 Location: Oregon, USA
 
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				|  Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 1:33 pm    Post subject: |   |  
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	  | loose_ends wrote: |  
	  | Has American foreign policy been hijacked? |  
 American foreign policy remains more or less as it has been since the end of World War II.  As on most days, the news today has some striking evidence of this.
 
 A case can be made that Bush took the imperialist -- uh, excuse me, humanitarian-intervention-for-their-own-good-ist -- approach to new lows, if only because he took the idiotic advice of his worthless SecState seriously and decided to outright "buy" what he had "broken".  But the popular lefty idea that Bush represents some sort of ultra-bizarre aberration from the norm of modern Presidents is pure fantasy.  None of them have ever proven capable of understanding the old adage: When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.
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		| Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee 
 
  
 Joined: 25 May 2003
 
 
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				|  Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 6:17 am    Post subject: |   |  
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	  | loose_ends wrote: |  
	  | Wow... 
 Thanks for the link.
 
 The silence from those that chose not to be interviewed speaks volumes.  How far can one reasonably accept this is all gross incompetence?
 
 Has American foreign policy been hijacked?
 
 Any comments from those that still support US intentions in Iraq?
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 Doesn't mean the US was wrong just means a lot of mistakes were made.
 
 9-11 showed the US that the way the mideast was a threat to the US. Something had to be done.  The US never invaded Iraq to invade Iraq , the US invaded Iraq to invade the middle east.
 
 Remember if Saddam had given up his war their would have been no war. And a lot of lives where saved by keeping Saddam from doing what he intended to do. Those lives count too.
 
 
 War to steal oil or force your religion on others is  wrong , war to force others to quit their war isn't .
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		| nicholas_chiasson 
 
  
 Joined: 14 Jun 2007
 Location: Samcheok
 
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				|  Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 7:34 am    Post subject: |   |  
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				| -Quite simply the Iraq War is the culmination of neo-con political thought taken to its logical extreme. A total disregard for foreign policiy, a total disregard for opposed view points(within the PARTY), a total contempt for christian values while trumpeting the Jesus religon card. Neo-cons are facists, and they admit it only to their close friends. Politics has always been about expediency, but with Bush and friends, a coven of suits decides 'what is best for the country' without taking into account how the country really feels about it. -Case in point. To argue that 'aggressive questioning" TORTURE has saved the lives of US service men, is stupid. I'm sure that torturing a US POW in Vietnam convinced other prisoners not to escape, and thereby not kill or injure Vietcong or NVA forces.
 -Is there a real, danger, international threat from Islamic terrorism. YES. So, why did we overthrow a SECULAR arab regime? Logic melts. And if a secular arab regime was mad at us...did we wonder why? Nope, just steam roll it, cause never disagree with a neo-con with a gun.
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