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Czarjorge
Joined: 01 May 2007
Location: I now have the same moustache, and it is glorious.
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 Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 7:20 pm Post subject: |
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I don't hate Hillary, I hate the way she is campaigning. I hate the way Bill is campaigning. I hate that I'm now so put off I'm not only uncertain if I would vote FOR her I'm tempted to vote AGAINST her. I hate the politics as usual.
What turns you off about Obama? The speeches without substance? Both are guilty of that. To be honest I'm turned off by the degree to which substantive debate has been thrown out by both campaigns. Obama does have excellent policies in my opinion, I'm not sure why there isn't more discussion of this fact. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 7:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Czarjorge wrote: |
To be honest I'm turned off by the degree to which substantive debate has been thrown out by both campaigns. Obama does have excellent policies in my opinion, I'm not sure why there isn't more discussion of this fact. |
I think that's a fair point. Obama has detailed policies, but until very recently he hasn't 'owned' them. It looks like they've come from somewhere else. And that's not a criticism, the policies aren't all drafted up by the candidate, but the candidate needs to own them. Clinton does own hers. I sympathize with your frustration.
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| What turns you off about Obama? The speeches without substance? Both are guilty of that. |
Part of it is the presumption. The whole 'I have a new way for politics.' He goes so far as using the word 'transcedence.' No one candidate can just come in and change the system (actually, in one of the debates, I think before NH, the moderator pounced on them all for suggesting that the system makes change impossible. Even Obama admitted enough that that was true). So in a sense I think he's a snake-oil salesman, promising us a new way and a new path, and the culmination of a dream! Not having been in office long enough, I don't think he has any idea how tough this will be. Moreover, it reminds me a lot of Bush: sell big, bold expectations.
The other part of it is the use of 'we.' I realize what he's doing. He's trying to ground his transcedence in a collective movement wherein he makes his transcedence the power of 'we' and not just him. But . . . where are we going? I know there's some places we need to go as a nation, but I don't think this kind of movement will be sustainable. I want a President, judicious and worthy of respect, not a standard-bearer for my hopes and dreams. I don't need a politician to be that for me.
In the end, I'm just not buying the campaign sell. Sure, Hillary's sell is weak and somewhat obnoxious, and that's why she's losing. Yes, she's selling experience when she's not that experienced. And she's inexplicably attacked 'hope' (tip: don't attack hope!).
Can Obama gain independents? Maybe, but he has to tone it down in time for the election. I think his campaign style is actually savvy for the primaries. I respect Barack, there's no question, and eventually I'll come to accept him. But I better see some different tones in his campaign come the Fall, because the entire 'Si, se puede' meme is more collectivist than I think independents will be able to swallow. |
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Milwaukiedave
Joined: 02 Oct 2004
Location: Goseong
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| Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 8:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
| Milwaukiedave wrote: |
So now anything that is uplifting is suddenly a creepy? |
Specifically, its the 'we' part I find creepy.
You can't have it both ways: bloviating about how much you hate Hillary without the pro-Clinton posters pointing out what turns them off. |
I'll tell you what irks me is the misrepresentation and claims of "cultism" which is exactly what you said in your previous post.
You are the one trying to have it your way by posting negative crap and then turning around and calling the conversation I had "petty".
I asked you an honest question and you refused to answer. The attacks by surrogate parade is getting tiresome, but Hillary continues to push on with it. A 10 minute plus tirade? Never mind, I'm sure you won't even answer. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 9:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Milwaukiedave wrote: |
| Kuros wrote: |
| Milwaukiedave wrote: |
So now anything that is uplifting is suddenly a creepy? |
Specifically, its the 'we' part I find creepy.
You can't have it both ways: bloviating about how much you hate Hillary without the pro-Clinton posters pointing out what turns them off. |
I'll tell you what irks me is the misrepresentation and claims of "cultism" which is exactly what you said in your previous post.
You are the one trying to have it your way by posting negative crap and then turning around and calling the conversation I had "petty".
I asked you an honest question and you refused to answer. The attacks by surrogate parade is getting tiresome, but Hillary continues to push on with it. A 10 minute plus tirade? Never mind, I'm sure you won't even answer. |
I didn't call the conversation you had petty, I called the criticisms of Clinton petty.
Maybe you'll note that I my views were requested:
| Czarjorge wrote: |
| What turns you off about Obama? The speeches without substance? Both are guilty of that . . . |
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Milwaukiedave
Joined: 02 Oct 2004
Location: Goseong
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| Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 9:27 pm Post subject: |
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I see you aren't going to answer me on either question.
Are 10+minute tirades what this campaign is about? |
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Milwaukiedave
Joined: 02 Oct 2004
Location: Goseong
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| Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 9:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
| I didn't call the conversation you had petty, I called the criticisms of Clinton petty. |
So you agree with Clinton when she says certain states, states that have had a tendancy to vote Republican in the past or caucus states don't count?
Please remind me what Howard Dean's strategy was when he took over the DNC? Was that a blue (non-caucus) state strategy?
http://www.democrats.org/a/2004/06/a_50_state_stra.php |
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Milwaukiedave
Joined: 02 Oct 2004
Location: Goseong
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| Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 9:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Czarjorge wrote: |
| I don't hate Hillary, I hate the way she is campaigning. I hate the way Bill is campaigning. I hate that I'm now so put off I'm not only uncertain if I would vote FOR her I'm tempted to vote AGAINST her. I hate the politics as usual. |
I agree with you to a certain extent, but not about voting against her. I am pretty sick of the constant negative attacks coming out of her campaign, particularly the newest ones in Wisconsin and now the tirade which I put a link to a video in a previous post. That is just inexcusable. Last year she ran a campaign that was all, but inevitable. It isn't the media that does that, it's her. She was up in the national polls by as much as 20 points. I've never said Obama was inevitable. It's still going to be a fight to the end to see who can do well in the next couple of months.
Up until a few years ago, I might have voted for her. Her vote for the resolution on Iraq was wrong and she won't admit it. I voted for her husband twice and shook his hand in 1996 in Portland as well as helping coordinated DNC campaign. For all the rhetoric about my being anti-Hillary, I personally think I have a few good reasons. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 9:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Milwaukiedave wrote: |
| Kuros wrote: |
| I didn't call the conversation you had petty, I called the criticisms of Clinton petty. |
So you agree with Clinton when she says certain states, states that have had a tendancy to vote Republican in the past or caucus states don't count?
Please remind me what Howard Dean's strategy was when he took over the DNC? Was that a blue (non-caucus) state strategy?
http://www.democrats.org/a/2004/06/a_50_state_stra.php |
Some of the Clinton spin is wierd.
But this takes the cake:
| Robinson wrote: |
| [Hillary] can't avoid facing -- and we can no longer avoid asking -- those unwelcome questions about whether she does her party more harm than good if she stays in the race until the convention |
Ah, yes, Clinton's run for the Presidency, with 93% of the delegate count Obama has, is somehow hurting the Democrats. Even when she was on her bestest behavior in the debates, some pundits calling her too soft.
The screwed up thing is, M-Dave, you and I probably align up on more issues than not. |
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Milwaukiedave
Joined: 02 Oct 2004
Location: Goseong
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| Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 9:53 pm Post subject: |
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I don't think she should be pushed out of the race, but I think she does have a clear choice of when to exit gracefully if the time comes. There is a concern that she will pull strings to try to win or do anything she can. Given the fact that both her and her husband are now considered "elders" (and I use those words carefully) in the party, it's a legitimate concern.
Yes, we probably do agree on issues more then we would like to believe. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 10:39 pm Post subject: |
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There is a certain smugness that is emerging from the Obama camp that I find distasteful. It's that 'inevitability, entitlement' air some of them are starting to project. It's beginning to turn me off.
I also am feeling apprehension about some of the Ron Paulish fervor some supporters are showing. It isn't healthy. |
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Milwaukiedave
Joined: 02 Oct 2004
Location: Goseong
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| Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 10:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
| There is a certain smugness that is emerging from the Obama camp that I find distasteful. It's that 'inevitability, entitlement' air some of them are starting to project. It's beginning to turn me off. |
Certainly Axelrod's statement the morning after Wisconsin was worrisome to me. I don't think the Obama camp can take anything for granted given the fact they have come so far. I would hope they see what a mistake it was in other campaigns and resist the temptation to copy it. |
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mithridates
Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency
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| Posted: Sat Feb 23, 2008 4:14 am Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
Ah, yes, Clinton's run for the Presidency, with 93% of the delegate count Obama has, is somehow hurting the Democrats. Even when she was on her bestest behavior in the debates, some pundits calling her too soft.
The screwed up thing is, M-Dave, you and I probably align up on more issues than not. |
That's actually pretty common (that the closer you are the more you argue); check out this thread:
http://groups.google.com/group/europa.linguas/browse_thread/thread/a16c5b9f63bbb7e5/6090605303af346d
I guess it makes sense because when you find someone that agrees with 0% of what you say you can blow it off as being completely different from you, but when they agree with 95% you have to wonder where they got that weird other 5% from. |
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Hater Depot
Joined: 29 Mar 2005
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| Posted: Sat Feb 23, 2008 4:58 am Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
| If she can challenge the rules, good for her. Its not like she's *cheating*. Either she convinces and lobbies successfully or she doesn't. All the people here complaining about Hillary's moves are people who already hated her. |
You can't take that line and also slam Obama for not taking public financing, which would after all be a huge boon to McCain in the general. |
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