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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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 Posted: Sun Feb 24, 2008 5:47 am Post subject: |
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| Omkara wrote: |
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| Indeed. But consider if we all cared to live like Japanese in Tokyo, we could contain the world's population in Texas. There still is lots of room. |
Now, isn't this the logic that led to feed-lots in the first place? Aaasshhh! I-go! |
Ha. Indeed.
Here's the way to quote.
[quote ]I like meat! More the animal suffers the better it tastes![/ quote]
No! Animal suffering dumps carcinogens in their meat! You fool!
| Quote: |
| I like meat! More the animal suffers the better it tastes! |
No! Animal suffering dumps carcinogens in their meat! You fool!
Just put [quote ] and [/ quote] around what you want to quote. Just remember to remove the spaces. |
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Omkara
Joined: 18 Feb 2006
Location: USA
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| Posted: Sun Feb 24, 2008 7:59 am Post subject: |
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[quote="mindmetoo"]
Hmmm.... |
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Omkara
Joined: 18 Feb 2006
Location: USA
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| Posted: Sun Feb 24, 2008 4:07 pm Post subject: |
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| SuperFly wrote: |
I noticed something while eating a tender juicy burger the other day. That sometimes, just sometimes if you chew slowly and thoughtfully enough, you can almost taste the cow's soul.  |
Y'know, I saw a dog eat it's own crap once. It chewed real slowly, in chomps. Super-fly soul searchin! |
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The Bobster
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2008 12:27 am Post subject: |
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Intersting thread. The discussion started out about compassion toward the food we eat before we bite in and chew, then moved to the nutrition / environmental angle. This might be easier if we stayed in one realm before moving on ... just an idea.
Then again, I guess most arguments in favor of the vegetarian mode can be demolished by :
"I don't really care - it's cheap and delicious and I'm going to eat it it."
To which the vegetarian can only respond :
"You are wrong and I am right - not only that, you are apathetically cruel and I'm better than you because I know more and care more."
It all gets muddier still when other questions pop up :
1. What is "natural," and why is it important that my food be natural?
2. Why should compassion be an issue for humans when it is not an issure for animals?
3. Maybe the problem is that I'm too rich and there are a lot of people who want to be as rich as me - should we save the world by being poor, then?
4. Fish should never eat corn, and who in the world ever thought THAT was a good idea?
5. Abattiors (damn, wish I were Canadian so I could spell French words properly!) are ugly places, and so are many Korean toilets - ought we not eliminate both categories from the face of the earth?
6. When, oh when, will mindmetoo and The Bobster find time in our days to watch all the youtube videos being presented as scientific evidence?
7. Will Omkara EVER find the tech-savy required to make proper use of the quote function? And will we all survive the onslaught, once he also learns how to change colors and font sizes?
All these questions pale, however, before the REALLY important one:
8. What can a poor boy do, 'cept to sing for a rock 'n' roll band? |
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Omkara
Joined: 18 Feb 2006
Location: USA
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| Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2008 1:51 am Post subject: |
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| The Bobster wrote: |
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| "I don't really care - it's cheap and delicious and I'm going to eat it it." To which the vegetarian can only respond : "You are wrong and I am right - not only that, you are apathetically cruel and I'm better than you because I know more and care more." |
Sometimes the argument does come to this, which is an important feature of the argument. This is why I agree with MindMeToo that the only way to bring about change is to create an alternative that is attractive to both consumers and marketers. There ought to be, first, real education, outlined, not by market interests, but by real environmental science. From the scholarship generated here, economists can work their majic and find how to make a buck from it all.
| Quote: |
It all gets muddier still when other questions pop up :
1. What is "natural," and why is it important that my food be natural? |
What is "Natural" is, of course a muddy term, though it is of some generic use. We can think of the term by using the metaphor of harmony. That is natural which is not in dischord with eco-systems.
| Quote: |
| 2. Why should compassion be an issue for humans when it is not an issure for animals? |
There are examples of compassion in the animal kingdom. Compassion, I would venture to say, is to be found in all socially organized mammals. But the question is, why is it so? There are good arguments which show that compassion is an evolutionary adaptation which leads to a greater probablility of survival, etc. The more difficult question is , Why should we give a damn about animal sufferring? Is compassion for animals a mis-firing of our nature of kin-compassion? There may be some evolutionary advantage in having compassion for animals. Or, there may be not.
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| 3. Maybe the problem is that I'm too rich and there are a lot of people who want to be as rich as me - should we save the world by being poor, then? |
False dichotomy?
| Quote: |
| 4. Fish should never eat corn, and who in the world ever thought THAT was a good idea? |
Economists and businessmen.
| Quote: |
| 6. When, oh when, will mindmetoo and The Bobster find time in our days to watch all the youtube videos being presented as scientific evidence? |
Is the only good evidence scientific? And when the evidence does have scientific data and theory, does it matter the format? If find that there are aspects of the video which have a rhetorical value which is most often wanting in letters. First, few writers have such skill; second, few readers can read so well. In addition, it seems that only MindMeToo finds the video to be a time burden; most find it the other way around.
| Quote: |
| 7. Will Omkara EVER find the tech-savy required to make proper use of the quote function? And will we all survive the onslaught, once he also learns how to change colors and font sizes? |
You're screwed.
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Omkara
Joined: 18 Feb 2006
Location: USA
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| Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2008 2:02 am Post subject: |
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Here's some scientific data for mindmetoo. I'm not sure what it says. It's not a video and I didn't read it. But, I bet it's good and supports my points well.
http://www.goveg.com/environment.asp
Okay, I did read this paragraph, which proves that my position ought to be held dogmatically:
Quote:
A major 2006 report by the United Nations summarized the devastation caused by the meat industry. Raising animals for food, the report said, is �one of the top two or three most significant contributors to the most serious environmental problems, at every scale from local to global. The findings of this report suggest that it should be a major policy focus when dealing with problems of land degradation, climate change and air pollution, water shortage and water pollution and loss of biodiversity. Livestock�s contribution to environmental problems is on a massive scale �.�5
Do you see that little number five at the end? I'm not sure what it's for, but it looks cool. |
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Temporary
Joined: 13 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2008 2:10 am Post subject: |
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| Omkara wrote: |
Here's some scientific data for mindmetoo. I'm not sure what it says. It's not a video and I didn't read it. But, I bet it's good and supports my points well.
http://www.goveg.com/environment.asp
Okay, I did read this paragraph, which proves that my position ought to be held dogmatically:
Quote:
A major 2006 report by the United Nations summarized the devastation caused by the meat industry. Raising animals for food, the report said, is “one of the top two or three most significant contributors to the most serious environmental problems, at every scale from local to global. The findings of this report suggest that it should be a major policy focus when dealing with problems of land degradation, climate change and air pollution, water shortage and water pollution and loss of biodiversity. Livestock’s contribution to environmental problems is on a massive scale ….”5
Do you see that little number five at the end? I'm not sure what it's for, but it looks cool. |
Seriously dood the following applies to you.
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Omkara
Joined: 18 Feb 2006
Location: USA
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| Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2008 2:24 am Post subject: |
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perhaps, dooood! |
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The Bobster
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2008 2:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Omkara wrote: |
| You're screwed. |
Your quote function expertise is still wanting. The trick is to try to get the quoted text inside the box and your words outside of it ... I'll try to send you a pm with slightly better instructions later in the day when I have more time.
It should work like this :
| Quote: |
| There are examples of compassion in the animal kingdom. Compassion, I would venture to say, is to be found in all socially organized mammals. But the question is, why is it so? There are good arguments which show that compassion is an evolutionary adaptation which leads to a greater probablility of survival, etc. |
What you state so blandly as something everyone ought to know without being told is something that is actually a topic of very heated debate among biologists, and especially sociobiologists (Dawkins, et al). I'm willing to bet you that most examples you'd suggest regarding "socially organized mammals" are examples that someone will provide an alternate explanation for that does not involve giving to another creature (especially one unrelated by heredity) with no possibility of gain in return.
As well, you may need to provide your own definition of compassion and defend it beyond what you have done above, because it is somewhat at odds with the definitions I've seen used by scientists who study living creatures as their livelihood. I have a feeling what you are calling compassion among animals is what a professional animal behaviorist would call a survival strategy designed to maximize the likelihood of an inidividual's DNA pattern being passed on the the next and succeeding generations.
| Quote: |
| Is the only good evidence scientific? |
When two or more people are talking and trying to describe the world, evidence is a pretty essential tool to avoid getting caught in so much subjectivity that a shared perspective of the world becomes impossible. So, in short, yes.
Non-scientific evidence works fine for an individual who is not interested in communicationg a worldview, but rather finds it a useful way to explain things to him or herself - and I won't make light of that, as it can provide a framework upon which to hang a sense of well-being essential to a healthy mind - and perhaps also a rationale for behavior that promotes such feelings but which might seen inexplicable to others. In other words, good on ya, and more power to ya ...
But if it's what you got when you wanna convince me of something I'm not otherwise inclined to go with, maybe you're better off writing a poem. Or something. |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Omkara wrote: |
Here's some scientific data for mindmetoo. I'm not sure what it says. It's not a video and I didn't read it. But, I bet it's good and supports my points well.
http://www.goveg.com/environment.asp
Okay, I did read this paragraph, which proves that my position ought to be held dogmatically:
Quote:
A major 2006 report by the United Nations summarized the devastation caused by the meat industry. Raising animals for food, the report said, is �one of the top two or three most significant contributors to the most serious environmental problems, at every scale from local to global. The findings of this report suggest that it should be a major policy focus when dealing with problems of land degradation, climate change and air pollution, water shortage and water pollution and loss of biodiversity. Livestock�s contribution to environmental problems is on a massive scale �.�5
Do you see that little number five at the end? I'm not sure what it's for, but it looks cool. |
For this I don't disagree. The solution is
a) get everyone to become a vegetarian
b) get everyone to seriously curtail their meat intake and tell a billion chinese about to explode into massive wealth they can't enjoy steak and all the other hall marks of having arrived
c) figure out the problems and engineer around them.
I have to say a) is probably not realistic. It's like trying to stop AIDS by telling people to simply not have sex.
B and C are the reality based solutions. Coming back to AIDS, you have to tell people the problem, get them to alter behavior as best they can but you also need a technological solution: condoms, find a vaccine.
| Quote: |
| Farmed animals produce about 130 times as much excrement as the entire human population of the United States, and since factory farms don't have sewage treatment systems as our cities and towns do, this concentrated slop ends up polluting our water, destroying our topsoil, and contaminating our air |
Where does our fertilizer for organic farming come from? I thought it came from farmed animals? We sure don't want to use human waste. What a great way to transmit human specific pathogens. So if we eliminated animal farming, how does your organic farming work? |
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Rteacher
Joined: 23 May 2005
Location: Western MA, USA
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| Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:26 pm Post subject: |
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Compost -
...Many people say it's not essential to use animal manure to make good compost, and that's true. Some people actively avoid it. But it's better to use manure, if you can get it. All natural topsoil is derived from a mixture of animal and plant matter -- nature never attempts to raise plants without animals. It's important that some portion of what's recycled into the soil should have passed through animals. This is one of the reasons we recommend using urine as an activator.
Manure from any animal that's not a carnivore will do, plus poultry. The Biodynamic school of organic growing -- ace compost makers -- swears by cowdung, ascribing special qualities to it. In Hong Kong we used manure from the herd of feral water buffalo who were our neighbours, and it was excellent. A fifth of the total amount of compost material is enough manure, don't use more than a quarter.
Beware of manure from factory-farmed livestock that's fed commercial feed laced with antibiotics. You can use it, it'll probably work okay, and the antibiotics will break down in the heat, but why put stuff in your compost that'll kill the very critters that do all the work for you?
http://journeytoforever.org/compost_farm.html |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Rteacher wrote: |
Compost -
...Many people say it's not essential to use animal manure to make good compost, and that's true. Some people actively avoid it. But it's better to use manure, if you can get it. All natural topsoil is derived from a mixture of animal and plant matter -- nature never attempts to raise plants without animals. It's important that some portion of what's recycled into the soil should have passed through animals. This is one of the reasons we recommend using urine as an activator.
Manure from any animal that's not a carnivore will do, plus poultry. The Biodynamic school of organic growing -- ace compost makers -- swears by cowdung, ascribing special qualities to it. In Hong Kong we used manure from the herd of feral water buffalo who were our neighbours, and it was excellent. A fifth of the total amount of compost material is enough manure, don't use more than a quarter.
Beware of manure from factory-farmed livestock that's fed commercial feed laced with antibiotics. You can use it, it'll probably work okay, and the antibiotics will break down in the heat, but why put stuff in your compost that'll kill the very critters that do all the work for you?
http://journeytoforever.org/compost_farm.html |
Ummm but where do these animals come from in enough numbers to produce all the manure for organic fertilizer? You actually suggesting we stack chickens 100 feet high for their eggs and poop? I thought we had to get rid of all animals in human service, chickens for eggs and cows for milk, for example. |
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lucas_p
Joined: 17 Sep 2007
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| Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2008 6:11 pm Post subject: |
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| What we really need to do is pit you vegetarians against the "You can't bash fat people" fat people (Two distinct and seemingly well-populated groups within this board). I want to see the vegetarians tell the big folk they can't have their hamburgers. |
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BreakfastInBed
Joined: 16 Oct 2007
Location: Gyeonggi do
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| Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2008 6:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
I guess most arguments in favor of the vegetarian mode can be demolished by :
"I don't really care - it's cheap and delicious and I'm going to eat it it."
To which the vegetarian can only respond :
"You are wrong and I am right - not only that, you are apathetically cruel and I'm better than you because I know more and care more."
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That's it in a nutshell. The germ-seed under all the rhetoric. Callousness vs. righteousness, driven to all manner of extremes to antagonize each other. No offense to the participants of this debate, which I haven't kept up with faithfully. The Bobster's speaking my language though, first causes. |
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Omkara
Joined: 18 Feb 2006
Location: USA
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| Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2008 7:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
a) get everyone to become a vegetarian
b) get everyone to seriously curtail their meat intake and tell a billion chinese about to explode into massive wealth they can't enjoy steak and all the other hall marks of having arrived
c) figure out the problems and engineer around them.
I have to say a) is probably not realistic. It's like trying to stop AIDS by telling people to simply not have sex.
B and C are the reality based solutions. Coming back to AIDS, you have to tell people the problem, get them to alter behavior as best they can but you also need a technological solution: condoms, find a vaccine. |
I think you are right on here. Preaching morality works only on Sundays.
| Quote: |
| Quote: |
| Farmed animals produce about 130 times as much excrement as the entire human population of the United States, and since factory farms don't have sewage treatment systems as our cities and towns do, this concentrated slop ends up polluting our water, destroying our topsoil, and contaminating our air |
Where does our fertilizer for organic farming come from? I thought it came from farmed animals? We sure don't want to use human waste. What a great way to transmit human specific pathogens. So if we eliminated animal farming, how does your organic farming work? |
[/quote]
My understanding is that there is simply too much fertilizer to use. Then, there is the transport of the substance from one mono-production feedlot to another mono-pruduction farm. This is petrolium. Part of the key to an organic model is having those things we would consume--cows, chickens, corn, carrots--well integrated into a seemless whole, minimizing the need for external inputs. Granted, as you pointed out, a perfectly organic farm cannot solve our food problem alone. But, it can serve as a part and as a model from which we may make deductions in order to create more practical indutrial-organic models. |
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