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Must see documentary: "No end in sight"
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Julius

Joined: 27 Jul 2006

Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 8:13 am Post subject:

arjuna wrote:

There is no end of it in sight.

ummm......the moment Obama takes office?

Both him and Hillary would be up for a withdrawal from Iraq, thus undoing all the good achieved there over the past few years.

The Americans have to keep a presence in the middle east. If they pull out, the terrorists will view it as a victory and simply expand the jihad further afield. Best keep the problem focussed in Iraq.

jkelly80

Joined: 13 Jun 2007
Location: you boys like mexico?

Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 8:16 am Post subject:

Iraq is the Nagasaki and Hiroshima of World War A-rab. It's long been part of the Project For a New American Century's plan, to use Iraq as the strategic pivot to get at Egypt via Saudi Arabia. While this might be cagey foreign policy, it's morally despicable and should be enough to get guys like Perle, Feith, and Cheney locked up.

blaseblasphemener

Joined: 01 Jun 2006
Location: There's a voice, keeps on calling me, down the road, that's where I'll always be

Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 9:50 am Post subject:

Julius wrote:

arjuna wrote:

There is no end of it in sight.

Did you watch the documentary? Please explain "all the good" over the past few years.

Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee

Joined: 25 May 2003

Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 3:49 pm Post subject:

jkelly80 wrote:

Iraq is the Nagasaki and Hiroshima of World War A-rab. It's long been part of the Project For a New American Century's plan, to use Iraq as the strategic pivot to get at Egypt via Saudi Arabia. While this might be cagey foreign policy, it's morally despicable and should be enough to get guys like Perle, Feith, and Cheney locked up.

Just tell mideast regimes and elties not to teach hate incite violence and plan and fund terror. Then there won't be any war. If anything 9-11 showed that Project For a New American Century was correct.

Stealing oil is morally despicable . forcing the enemy to quit their war isn't.

Also US actions in the mideast saved a lot of lives. Saddam had he been allowed to go free would have killed off the Kurds and invaded Kuwait. Those ought to count for something.

loose_ends

Joined: 23 Jul 2007

Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 8:34 pm Post subject:

Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote:

jkelly80 wrote:

I bet you haven't watched the movie yet.

If you had, you would have learned that US policy in Iraq aided in creating "their war".

Perhaps you should watch the movie Joo. Your ignorance on the matter is shining through brightly, no offence.

nicholas_chiasson

Joined: 14 Jun 2007
Location: Samcheok

Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 9:42 pm Post subject:

Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote:

Also US actions in the mideast saved a lot of lives. Saddam had he been allowed to go free would have killed off the Kurds and invaded Kuwait. Those ought to count for something.

out of curiosity, how do you think the US decides what evil dictators to overthrow? Pol Pot dies of natural causes, Suharto just kicked the bucket, and don't mention Pinochet or Cuba before Castro. Isn't the Arab regime in the Sudan one of the most brutal of modern times? Yet you don't see the 101 airborne going to Khartoum.
-In short the US does NOT intervene in cases of drastic violation of human rights. Thus to argue we had a 'moral' reason to enter Iraq is NOT borne out by US foreign Policy. It is an excuse used by this administration which quotes the Bible while bombing its enemies.

Funkdafied

Joined: 04 Nov 2007
Location: In Da House

Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:32 am Post subject:

Quote:

I don't suppose you've seen or read Manufactured Consent, Joo? Chomsky actually says in the 1992 documentary that conspiracy theorist is a term thrown out against anyone who speaks non-convential wisdom.

You like Chompsky? Think he's a bright guy? Me too. He is also publically on record stating that 911 truthers are nuts and there is no way in hell that the government would ever chose such a profoundly high risk and complex and deadly method for allowing them to expand thier powers. I agree with him.

Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee

Joined: 25 May 2003

Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2008 6:56 am Post subject:

nicholas_chiasson wrote:

Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote:

Also US actions in the mideast saved a lot of lives. Saddam had he been allowed to go free would have killed off the Kurds and invaded Kuwait. Those ought to count for something.

Saddam was a threat to US interests, and more than that the middle east was as it was was a threat to US security. The US never invaded Iraq to invade Iraq , the US invaded Iraq to invade the middle east.

The fact is taking down Saddam saved lives too. That has to figure into any calculation about whether or not the US did something morally wrong.

I am not saying that the US took down Saddam to save lives but it was a rationalization for US actions. If Saddam was not a mass killer then Iraq would not have been invaded, nor would the US have be concerned about allowing Saddam's Iraq to become a powerful nation.

Examine the following statement:

As long as the US prevents more suffering as a result of its actions than is caused by them then almost anything the US does to get ahead is ok.

The US is in the clear as long as the end result is not greater suffering.

I would like to know what is so wrong about that? There probably are a few things wrong with such an opinon but it is very, very close to true.

Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee

Joined: 25 May 2003

Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2008 6:58 am Post subject:

[quote="loose_ends"][

Quote:

I bet you haven't watched the movie yet.

not yet

Quote:

If you had, you would have learned that US policy in Iraq aided in creating "their war".

What do you mean?

Oh you talking about KHomeni . Khomeni was a religo- fascist bigot who was out to get the US too.

Wants to crush the Bahi. In Iran for a time raping Madean women is considered an act of purification. Supporter of terror . Fatwa killed 30,000 Iranians in 1989 alone.

Just for the record

France , the USSR and China gave far more to Saddam than the US did.

Lion of Babylon ( Pronounce it Lion A Babylon)

Soviet made Iraqi T-72 tank

French built Iraqi Mirage

Quote:

Perhaps you should watch the movie Joo. Your ignorance on the matter is shining through brightly, no offence.

Tell me where. I think I know the subject. But lets have this out now.

Last edited by Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee on Tue Feb 26, 2008 12:59 am; edited 3 times in total

blaseblasphemener

Joined: 01 Jun 2006
Location: There's a voice, keeps on calling me, down the road, that's where I'll always be

Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2008 7:24 am Post subject:

Why haven't you watched the movie yet Joo? I would think you would want to see an un-U.S. mainstream media-filtered look at what went on there. Afraid of what you might find?

Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee

Joined: 25 May 2003

Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2008 7:27 am Post subject:

blaseblasphemener wrote:

Why haven't you watched the movie yet Joo? I would think you would want to see an un-U.S. mainstream media-filtered look at what went on there. Afraid of what you might find?

Just haven't gottne to it. By the way why is it than conservatives also complain about the msm? You think they have a point too?

blaseblasphemener

Joined: 01 Jun 2006
Location: There's a voice, keeps on calling me, down the road, that's where I'll always be

Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2008 7:32 am Post subject:

Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote:

blaseblasphemener wrote:

Why haven't you watched the movie yet Joo? I would think you would want to see an un-U.S. mainstream media-filtered look at what went on there. Afraid of what you might find?

Just haven't gottne to it. By the way why is it than conservatives also complain about the msm? You think they have a point too?

I think the mainstream media in the U.S. are lapdogs to corporate desires, and since the two political parties are bought and paid for with corporate money and unions, you can hardly expect much from the press. Have you seen or read Manufactured Consent? It's also on that linked page, the same one as "No end in Sight".

Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee

Joined: 25 May 2003

Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2008 7:36 am Post subject:

I don't have any faith in Noam Chomsky you know that creep who apologized for the Khmer Rouge. so you think when conservatives compalin about the liberal media they don't do it in good faith?

Adventurer

Joined: 28 Jan 2006

Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2008 7:49 am Post subject: Re: Must see documentary: "No end in sight"

Justin Hale wrote:

I'm of the view that the executors of the war didn't completely and naively neglect the possibility of chaos and war between Sunnis and Shiites. Rather than an incompetent quest for democracy, it is a quite ingenious quest for a war within Islam. Almost every day in Iraq, a mosque is blown up by other Muslims. The same happens in Pakistan on a weekly basis and it is waiting to happen in Syria and Iran. The schism goes back to the 6th Century dynastic/inheritance squabble (regarding Mohammed's offspring, basically)

It's always surprising to see that this is not as clear to all as it is to myself.

Justin, you seem to believe that the planners of the war actually planned properly. You also had disagreements. The person who preceded Bremer thought it was folly to disband the Iraqi Army. You also seem to think that there would be Sunnis and Shiites who would attack each other over religion in Iran. It would not happen. You mentioned Syria.
Syria has Alawites and Sunnis. The Alawites broke off from the Shiites some centuries ago, but have an alliance with the Shiites. The Middle East and the world is not that simple. There has been a long Shiite-Sunni divide. I don't believe the US Government is trying to promote that.
You said you believe something about the war, but I have not seen analysts stating that is their aim. In the past, Israel did promote conflict within Iraq to weaken their enemies, but the US does not have the same identical interests to that of Israel. I am glad the Kurds have more of a say in Iraq. I hope there will be a democratic government in Iraq, and I hope the Sunni tribes in the Anbar area will be accepted by the Iraq Government, and that it will have good relations with the West and the U.S. Anyway, if you could show me evidence that the neo-cons wanted such a fight, I am more willing to look at it..

Thanks..

blaseblasphemener

Joined: 01 Jun 2006
Location: There's a voice, keeps on calling me, down the road, that's where I'll always be

Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2008 8:05 am Post subject:

Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote:

I don't have any faith in Noam Chomsky you know that creep who apologized for the Khmer Rouge.

so you think when conservatives compalin about the liberal media they don't do it in good faith?

No, I think they do. And I think there is a "liberal" media and a "conservative" media. Obviously there is a huge difference between Keith Olberman and Fox News. But, ask yourself why the media covers stories in the rest of the world that are ignored in the U.S. Why are certain questions off limits? Why did the mainstream press not ask the hard questions about Iraq before the invasion and even years after, when these questions were being asked by media around the globe in the months before the invasion? For example, Canada's long-serving Prime Minister Jean Chretien, would not even entertain the idea of participating in the invasion. Was this covered by the U.S. press? I doubt it. This is the largest trading partner to the U.S. larger than China or Japan or Mexico, a country that shares not only the largest non-defended border in the world, but also which is incredibly close culturally to the U.S. We are also a country that takes a keen interest in America, and that frame of reference should be something that Americans would want to look at, in terms of what is NOT being looked at by the American media. Our most respected news magazine show, the Fifth Estate, on the publicly funded CBC, looked into questions about 911. Just questions. I mean, what is wrong with asking questions? This is the role of journalists. If you don't ask questions, then you are accepting the official stories. That is not the press' job. It's job is to question authority, period. And, in the case of the Bush administration, we are talking about one of the most secretive, closed administrations in history. We are talking about an administration filled with old boys from long-dead administrations, brought back from the dead. These guys know exactly how the machine works. Why would the press en masse take them at their word? Looking at what has occurred in the U.S. since 911, I think Noam Chomsky's profetic words are certainly none to be summarily dismissed. In the case of the Cambodia, I have no idea what you are referring to. He pointed out that while a genocide was occuring in Cambodia, another genocide in East Timor was ignored by the American press.

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