|
Korean Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Teachers from Around the World!"
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
Hater Depot
Joined: 29 Mar 2005
|
 Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 6:19 am Post subject: |
 |
|
| Quote: |
| It was one of the few issues on which Buckley did not really think for himself. And let's not forget he was still quite young and immature in his view of the world, with the brashness of inherited wealth to boot. |
He was 32 in 1957, not exactly a callow youth anymore. And NR continued to publish basically the same line for quite a while afterwards. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Rteacher
Joined: 23 May 2005
Location: Western MA, USA
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
blaseblasphemener
Joined: 01 Jun 2006
Location: There's a voice, keeps on calling me, down the road, that's where I'll always be
|
| Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 7:00 am Post subject: |
|
|
| jkelly80 wrote: |
Buckley on the white Southerner's social superiority (1957)
| Quote: |
The central question that emerges...is whether the White community in the South is entitled to take such measures as are necessary to prevail, politically and culturally, in areas in which it does not predominate numerically? The sobering answer is Yes�the White community is so entitled because, for the time being, it is the advanced race�
National Review believes that the South's premises are correct. If the majority wills what is socially atavistic, then to thwart the majority may be, though undemocratic, enlightened. It is more important for any community, anywhere in the world, to affirm and live by civilized standards, than to bow to the demands of the numerical majority. Sometimes it becomes impossible to assert the will of a minority, in which case it must give way; and the society will regress; sometimes the numerical minority cannot prevail except by violence: then it must determine whether the prevalence of its will is worth the terrible price of violence.
|
If those aren't the words of a bigot, they're the words of a man quite tolerant of one. From Slate |
They may be bigoted, but take out the word "White" and they sure as hell make a lot of sense. Look at what you get with democracy: a large group of people who vote for Bush because he says he's a born-again Christian. Look at Zimbabwe. Look at native self-government in Canada and Australia. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
agentX
Joined: 12 Oct 2007
Location: Jeolla province
|
| Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 7:00 am Post subject: |
|
|
Ok, I took a look at the Wiki page on him.
Quite an interesting tidbit.
| Quote: |
| In 1975, Buckley saw the film Three Days of the Condor, and was angered by what he viewed as its portrayal of the CIA as an amoral, maverick agency. |
What? He was upset because the film's portrayal of the CIA was accurate??
I would like to say "Another one bits the dust" but it appears he came to realize that the Iraq war was a clusterfuck all along. So who knows? Maybe he finally realized that his life's work was BS all along and that killed him. Or he realized McCanned has no chance, so it was 'his time'. Or maybe he saw his bill for Viagra tablets. But I guess that's for the biographer to determine. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Mosley
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
|
| Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 7:00 am Post subject: |
|
|
| jkelly80: point conceded that Buckley, in "presentism"(i.e., today's "standards"), put a target on his back, so to speak, but to infer that Buckley would have been at home w/a mirror sunglasses wearing Southern sherrif, c.1960, is grossly unfair/inaccurate. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
stillnotking
Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Location: Oregon, USA
|
| Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 8:55 am Post subject: |
|
|
| stevemcgarrett wrote: |
| stillnotking dropped more poop as he sprinted away: |
I always appreciate it when a poster uses the "do not bother to read beyond the first line" flag. Thank you for the courtesy. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Nowhere Man
Joined: 08 Feb 2004
|
| Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 9:14 am Post subject: ... |
|
|
| Quote: |
| Come clean, Nowhere Man. We promise not to snicker--much. |
COME CLEAN? OK. CHINA ISN'T IN SOUTHEAST ASIA, YOU TWIT.
TIME TO TAKE THE BUCKLEY POSTER OFF THE CEILING OVER YOUR BED, MR. MODERATE. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
stevemcgarrett
Joined: 24 Mar 2006
|
| Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 9:19 am Post subject: |
|
|
agentX:
Your username is beginning to sound like an old K-Mart Blu-Lite Special laundry detergent rather than the Bond type.
| Quote: |
| Maybe he finally realized that his life's work was BS all along and that killed him. Or he realized McCanned has no chance, so it was 'his time'. |
Well, you certainly wrote him off in a hurry, but American historians won't. He was 82, so I doubt the cumulative effect of his life's work killed him. In fact, he was ill because he was OLD. And if you think McCain has no chance, that's just wishful thinking. He'll beat Hillary hands down if she's the Dem's nominee; Obama might beat him but that's still up in the air and a lot depends on what happens in foreign policy in the next six months, Buford. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
|
| Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 9:39 am Post subject: |
|
|
So as not to speak ill of a man that I pretty much disagreed with on everything, I will observe that, from a left-wing standpoint, Buckely actually gave leftist thinkers more air time on Firing Line than they could ever have hoped to get from the mainstream American networks. His attempt at a hatchet job on Chomsky is pretty obvious, but have any of the Sunday morning shows ever given Noam so much as five minutes to expound his views?
And I remember him visiting Canada and having Bob Rae on as a guest, bringing the views of a socialist premier to an American audience. Rae is now regarded as having gone considerably to the right, but at the time he was seen by most Canadian leftists as a bona fide social democrat.
Also recall him having on a left-wing Labour MP from the UK, who stated that Kissinger gave the orders to kill Allende. Buckley pretty obviously diagreed with the guy, but again, I doubt that that type of opinion would ever be heard from a guest on Nightline, for example. (And I'm not saying the Labour guy's view was right or wrong, just that it's indicative of the breadth of opinion that WFB was willing to expose his audience to.) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
stillnotking
Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Location: Oregon, USA
|
| Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 12:41 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Kuros wrote: |
| stillnotking wrote: |
| Buckley bears more responsibility than any other single person for the creation of the military-industrial complex that Eisenhower warned against. He single-handedly began the strain of modern conservatism that reached its apotheosis in George W. Bush. |
Righ, so Buckley bears more responsibility than any other single person for the creation of the military-industrial complex than George W. Bush.
It's amazing how with the second sentence you undermined the first. |
Well, I've read my post a few times now since you generally know what you're talking about, but I cannot for the life of me understand your point this time. Buckley created the movement that (has so far) culminated in George W. Bush. Buckley was an ardent proponent of interventionism and American exceptionalism. He believed in Western Civilization as a force that superseded both democracy and the rule of law. (If you disagree, please see his National Review commentaries on desegregation and Jim Crow in the 1950s Deep South. Buckley was an unapologetic advocate of the view that blacks should be denied the vote until they could handle it -- in the estimation of white Southerners, of course.)
He was an educated fool whose hyperpartisanship and (often-justified) disdain for the liberal establishment led him heedlessly down truly horrible paths. He was the sort of man who only needed to know where the Harvard faculty stood on an issue to know that he advocated the opposite, and was an endless well of pseudo-intellectual justifications for obvious moral atrocities like the war in Vietnam. He was perpetually seduced by the mirage of "cultural decay", a malady of diagnosis that today afflicts almost everyone on the American right.
IOZ put it best this morning: "He was Ezra Pound unfortunately shorn of classicism, talent, and a cage." |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
|
| Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 4:24 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| stillnotking wrote: |
| Kuros wrote: |
| stillnotking wrote: |
| Buckley bears more responsibility than any other single person for the creation of the military-industrial complex that Eisenhower warned against. He single-handedly began the strain of modern conservatism that reached its apotheosis in George W. Bush. |
Righ, so Buckley bears more responsibility than any other single person for the creation of the military-industrial complex than George W. Bush.
It's amazing how with the second sentence you undermined the first. |
Well, I've read my post a few times now since you generally know what you're talking about, but I cannot for the life of me understand your point this time. Buckley created the movement that (has so far) culminated in George W. Bush. Buckley was an ardent proponent of interventionism and American exceptionalism. He believed in Western Civilization as a force that superseded both democracy and the rule of law. (If you disagree, please see his National Review commentaries on desegregation and Jim Crow in the 1950s Deep South. Buckley was an unapologetic advocate of the view that blacks should be denied the vote until they could handle it -- in the estimation of white Southerners, of course.)
He was an educated fool whose hyperpartisanship and (often-justified) disdain for the liberal establishment led him heedlessly down truly horrible paths. He was the sort of man who only needed to know where the Harvard faculty stood on an issue to know that he advocated the opposite, and was an endless well of pseudo-intellectual justifications for obvious moral atrocities like the war in Vietnam. He was perpetually seduced by the mirage of "cultural decay", a malady of diagnosis that today afflicts almost everyone on the American right.
IOZ put it best this morning: "He was Ezra Pound unfortunately shorn of classicism, talent, and a cage." |
Its just odd. You seem to be blaming Buckley more for what George W. Bush did than Bush himself.
Buckley nurtured all sorts of conservatives, including Barry Goldwater and other libertarians. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
stevemcgarrett
Joined: 24 Mar 2006
|
| Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 7:30 pm Post subject: |
|
|
stilltheking:
| Quote: |
| He was an educated fool whose hyperpartisanship and (often-justified) disdain for the liberal establishment led him heedlessly down truly horrible paths. He was the sort of man who only needed to know where the Harvard faculty stood on an issue to know that he advocated the opposite, and was an endless well of pseudo-intellectual justifications for obvious moral atrocities like the war in Vietnam. He was perpetually seduced by the mirage of "cultural decay", a malady of diagnosis that today afflicts almost everyone on the American right. |
Your deterministic mode of thought is so typical of Far Left loonies. According to your judgment, Buckley is responsible for anyone on the Right who you disdain. So why didn't Buckley march in lockstep with Bush on invading Iraq?
Buckley was wrong about segregation but so were most White intellectuals of the day and let's not forget that the White politicians in the South were mostly Democrats. Did he retain or reform his views on civil rights as time went on? Can you address that point? People have been known to modify their views, even change dramatically (look at David Horowitz, for example). Hell, even Henry Giroux has distanced himself from that neo-Marxist rant master Peter McLaren at UCLA. And Bill Ayers, formerly of the Weathermen and a fugitive from justice is now a professor in Chicago.
Labeling Vietnam a moral outrage through and through is just plain hyperbole. Most American strategic planning was well-intended but naive in underestimating for too long the VietCong and overestimating for too long the SVA. The JCS and McNamara bungled their way along, often on bad intelligence, to be sure. Agent Orange was often misapplied and carpet bombing was morally suspect (but then the same could be said of Allied raids on Germany during the Second World War, I suppose).
But what moral outrage do you have for Diem's successors--the NVA--who slaughtered or imprisoned millions and disrupted the entire economy?
And if you think that America is not experiencing any cultural decay, it's only because you relish the prospect of weakened religion and hedonism. But are you unconcerned about the divorce rate, the disintegration of families, dysfunction in the Black community on a scale never seen before, not to mention the sex-hyped, sexist rap and hip-hop subculture or the amoralism of most Hollywood directors? Do you take comfort in knowing that indoctrination has replaced education in far too many college classrooms, making a mockery of democratic inquiry?
You're still not king but you'd like to be the leader of the masses, eh? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
regicide
Joined: 01 Sep 2006
Location: United States
|
| Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 7:36 pm Post subject: |
|
|
[quote="bucheon bum"]
| stevemcgarrett wrote: |
stillnotking dropped more poop as he sprinted away:
| Quote: |
| You should be a staffer for the Regicide Center on Government Conspiracies. |
naw, stillnotking is generally more coherent and articulate than this post illustrates. He's definitely not any of those people you mention. |
What? The guy makes a stupid mistake and you defend him? I have got to get you on my team!
John Simpson writes: I have never heard the name William Frank Buckley mentioned in relation to the JFK assassination. However, there is evidence to suggest that he was willing to go to extreme measures to get Barry Goldwater elected in 1964. Is it possible that after the Cuban Missile Crisis and the failure of Operation Tilt, Buckley thought that more extreme measures were needed.
Buckley has had an interesting career. He is the son of William Buckley Sr., a Texas oil millionaire.
After the war Buckley enrolled at Yale University. He joined the Skull and Bones Society. Other members included George H. W. Bush, the future director of the CIA. Buckley soon became involved in right-wing politics and was involved in disrupting the 1948 Henry Wallace presidential campaign. In many ways, Wallace was an early example of JFK. He moved sharply to the left once in power (in Franklin D. Roosevelt's cabinet). Wallace was also horrified by the possibility of nuclear war (the issue that changed JFK's views on the Cold War).
During this period Buckley described himself as a "revolutionary against the present liberal order".
In 1951 Buckley joined the Central Intelligence Agency and worked with E. Howard Hunt in Mexico City. Despite the fact that Buckley is one of America's most prolific writers, he has said next to nothing about this part of his life.
While with the CIA he published God and Man at Yale: The Superstitions of Academic Freedom. He also worked with Eudocio Ravines on The Road to Yenan, a book about the communist conspiracy to obtain world domination.
According to Buckley, he left the CIA after a few months. In my opinion he never really left the CIA. Instead, it was decided that he would be more useful to the agency as an "independent" journalist. In other words, he was to become a key figure in Operation Mockingbird.
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=5078&st=0&start=0 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
agentX
Joined: 12 Oct 2007
Location: Jeolla province
|
| Posted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 12:06 am Post subject: |
|
|
| stevemcgarrett wrote: |
agentX:
Your username is beginning to sound like an old K-Mart Blu-Lite Special laundry detergent rather than the Bond type.
| Quote: |
| Maybe he finally realized that his life's work was BS all along and that killed him. Or he realized McCanned has no chance, so it was 'his time'. |
Well, you certainly wrote him off in a hurry, but American historians won't. He was 82, so I doubt the cumulative effect of his life's work killed him. In fact, he was ill because he was OLD. And if you think McCain has no chance, that's just wishful thinking. He'll beat Hillary hands down if she's the Dem's nominee; Obama might beat him but that's still up in the air and a lot depends on what happens in foreign policy in the next six months, Buford. |
Well, I certainly have my hands full scrubbing out the right wing garbage like this guy.
What was the ultimate outcome of his work? George W. Bush, the president that killed the conservative movement. And from his most recent statements, he seemed to have come to realize that. If I were a forefather of the conservative movement, I would be pretty heartsick as well.
As far as McCain goes, he can't go a week without embarrassing himself in some way, shape, or form. So the general's pretty much in the bag, unless Diebold gets involved. Yes, that's right. He can't win without cheating. He seems to be good at that part; cheating on his wife and cheating on ethics are already up his alley. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
wannago
Joined: 16 Apr 2004
|
| Posted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 12:17 am Post subject: |
|
|
| agentX wrote: |
| stevemcgarrett wrote: |
agentX:
Your username is beginning to sound like an old K-Mart Blu-Lite Special laundry detergent rather than the Bond type.
| Quote: |
| Maybe he finally realized that his life's work was BS all along and that killed him. Or he realized McCanned has no chance, so it was 'his time'. |
Well, you certainly wrote him off in a hurry, but American historians won't. He was 82, so I doubt the cumulative effect of his life's work killed him. In fact, he was ill because he was OLD. And if you think McCain has no chance, that's just wishful thinking. He'll beat Hillary hands down if she's the Dem's nominee; Obama might beat him but that's still up in the air and a lot depends on what happens in foreign policy in the next six months, Buford. |
Well, I certainly have my hands full scrubbing out the right wing garbage like this guy.
What was the ultimate outcome of his work? George W. Bush, the president that killed the conservative movement. And from his most recent statements, he seemed to have come to realize that. If I were a forefather of the conservative movement, I would be pretty heartsick as well.
As far as McCain goes, he can't go a week without embarrassing himself in some way, shape, or form. So the general's pretty much in the bag, unless Diebold gets involved. Yes, that's right. He can't win without cheating. He seems to be good at that part; cheating on his wife and cheating on ethics are already up his alley. |
I just LOVE it when the lefties start making excuses for losing an election that won't take place for another 9 months, especially when this one is supposed to be a "slam dunk". If McCain ends up winning (which, by the way, is totally possible) then the lefties will scream election fraud and, like last time, have ABSOLUTELY NO EVIDENCE to support it. You lefties are so cute! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
