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CeleryMan
Joined: 12 Apr 2007
Location: Seoul
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 Posted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 12:31 am Post subject: |
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| Forgive my ignorance, but these folks are fighting over land right? Don't they share the same ancestral lineage? |
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endo
Joined: 14 Mar 2004
Location: Seoul...my home
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| Posted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 2:21 am Post subject: |
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| Justin Hale wrote: |
| As a person of European descent, I feel it's important to support Israel as a sorry for the 2000 years of persecution they suffered at the the hands of my Christian ancestors. Terribly sorry about Nazi Germany and all that caper |
So why not give them land in Europe to form a new homeland? |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 3:27 am Post subject: |
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| Highlighted by the authors of the surprisingly popular Communist Manifesto. Now who were they again? |
So I guess all those Jews deserved to be wiped out then? |
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Justin Hale
Joined: 24 Nov 2007
Location: the Straight Talk Express
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| Posted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 3:49 am Post subject: |
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| Dome Vans wrote: |
Spinoz...sorry Justin.
Hitler's main reason for wanting to destroy the Jews was based on what he saw as the main evil in the West, the invasion of Communism. Highlighted by the authors of the surprisingly popular Communist Manifesto. Now who were they again?
The West have no reason to feel guilty. It's in the past. It's gone. Move on. |
If I understand you correctly here, your position appears to be this: Hitler's main reason, his principle motivation, for the Holocaust, was the threat of Communism? And, moreover, his reason for being anti-Communist is one of the authors of the Communist Manifesto was Jewish? (Engles wasn't)
That's one of the most bizarre things I've ever read.
| endo wrote: |
| So why not give them land in Europe to form a new homeland? |
It's better to give them a state where they originally came from. Europeans removed Jews from Israel, Europeans persecuted Jews for 2000 years, Europeans exterminated 6 million Jews....I think they owe them what ever they ask for. A strong state in the area of the planet dear to them isn't asking much IMO.
The state is central to the religion. Don't get me wrong, I've as much respect for the Jewish religion and its vile Torah as I have for a pile of garbage. A sad irony that Jews worship a dictator that makes Hitler seem a puddytat, but as much as I dislike absurd, obscene faiths, I do rather take the view that Europeans owe Jews a strong state in a part of the world of their choice. The Jews were treated like deicidal subhumans throughout Europe for 2000 years, which provided a vital pretext for the Holocaust. Mein Kampf mentions the word 'God' 69 times, an average of 2.5 times per chapter. Do I support the settlers in the West Bank and Gaza? No, I don't suppose so. Do I support post-1967 Israel? No, I don't suppose so. Do I support the State of Israel reconciled with the rights of the Palestinians? Yes, I suppose so, but I refuse to have a strong opinion about it, because the Palestinians as a collective entity, collective set of values and positions, are worthy of no respect at all.
Also, the Left woefully overemphasize the Israeli-Arab Conflict's centrality to the War on Terror. It's certainly important, but anyone who thinks "give the Palestinians a state and the terrorists will quit" is a simpleton. Getting on lefties' nerves is as satisfying and saintly as locking up a murderer.  |
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thiophene
Joined: 15 Sep 2007
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| Posted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 4:57 am Post subject: |
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| I'm kind of annoyed that the death of the UN surveillancers has been hushed. Unless it was wrong but I haven't heard that either. |
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Dome Vans
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 7:09 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
Dome Vans wrote:
Spinoz...sorry Justin.
Hitler's main reason for wanting to destroy the Jews was based on what he saw as the main evil in the West, the invasion of Communism. Highlighted by the authors of the surprisingly popular Communist Manifesto. Now who were they again?
The West have no reason to feel guilty. It's in the past. It's gone. Move on.
If I understand you correctly here, your position appears to be this: Hitler's main reason, his principle motivation, for the Holocaust, was the threat of Communism? And, moreover, his reason for being anti-Communist is one of the authors of the Communist Manifesto was Jewish? (Engles wasn't)
That's one of the most bizarre things I've ever read. |
I don't class it as a position of mine. The Holocaust was bad news but a big factor was down to the threat of Communism, and the effect of the Communist Manifesto (written primarily by Marx) and it's release in 1848.
It had a few main points amongst others:
*A heavy progressive or graduated income tax. (who gets this?)
*Abolition of all right of inheritance.
*Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels.
*Centralization of credit in the hands of the State, by means of a national bank with State capital and an exclusive monopoly
Historically Jews were money lenders. These particular points play into their hands. They would reap the rewards as the State. As a particular ideology it could be implemented the Russians just did it very badly.
The Bolshevik Revolution and the start of the Soviet Union in the October Uprising was the wake up call for Europe. The Ideology from the Communist Manifesto was a very real threat. As the Bolshevik uprising overthrew Tsarist Russia, there were enough communist intellectuals currently in Europe to make it even more of a worry. They were involved in the translating and distribution of The Communist Manifesto in Europe in the late 1890's. In The Jewish Question:
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| "The Jew, who in Vienna, for example, is only tolerated, determines the fate of the whole Empire by his financial power. The Jew, who may have no rights in the smallest German state, decides the fate of Europe. While corporations and guilds refuse to admit Jews, or have not yet adopted a favorable attitude towards them, the audacity of industry mocks at the obstinacy of the material institutions." |
http://history.hanover.edu/modern/marx/MARXJEW4.html
1914 was the start of WWI by the Russian backed Serbians assassinating Franz Ferdinand in Sarajevo. The Austro-Hungarians backed by Germany went to war. Then WWI happened. Germany lost.
Nazi Party came to power in 1925. Hitler leader. Still the threat of the communists. Extreme right wing nature of Germany and the threat of Communism still on the doorstep. February 27th 1933, fire at the Reichstag building blamed on a Communist Conspiracy, bear in mind who the father of communism was.
Hitler speech in 1939:
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| Today I will once more be a prophet: If the international Jewish financiers in and outside Europe should succeed in plunging the nations once more into a world war, then the result will not be the bolshevization of the earth, and thus the victory of Jewry, but the annihilation of the Jewish race in Europe! |
http://fcit.usf.edu/holocaust/RESOURCE/document/DocJewQn.htm
The holocaust happened. Hitler's hatred for jews amounted in no uncertain terms to his hatred for the one main evil that threatened Europe. The Father of Communism, and Author of the Communist just so happening to be Jewish.
Seems to fit.
BADLY OFF TOPIC THERE, SORRY! |
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Justin Hale
Joined: 24 Nov 2007
Location: the Straight Talk Express
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| Posted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 5:55 pm Post subject: |
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Seems to fit, but it's a simplistic Hitler/Communism binary. Germany becoming a genocidal state was motivated by religion-inspired racism that existed long before any conception of communism. The Nazis revised and used German Protestant theologian Martin Luther's ideas. Here's what he had to say about Jews in 'On the Jews and their lies':
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| Jews are no longer the chosen people, but are "the devil's people." They were "base, whoring people, that is, no people of God, and their boast of lineage, circumcision, and law must be accounted as filth." The synagogue was a "defiled bride, yes, an incorrigible *beep* and an evil *beep* ..." and Jews were full of the "devil's feces ... which they wallow in like swine." He advocated setting synagogues on fire, destroying Jewish prayerbooks, forbidding rabbis from preaching, seizing Jews' property and money, smashing up their homes, and ensuring that these "poisonous envenomed worms" be forced into labor or expelled "for all time." He also seemed to sanction their murder, writing "We are at fault in not slaying them." |
Here's what Hitler had to say in Mein Kampf:
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| What we must fight for is to safeguard the existence and reproduction of our race and our people, the sustenance of our children and the purity of our blood, the freedom and independence of the fatherland, so that our people may mature for the fulfillment of the mission allotted it by the creator of the universe |
And
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| Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord |
Christians owe Jews. If you and I were born 100 years ago, we'd be Christians in Christian states. Germans, Irish and English are the biggest ancestry groups in the US. I support a strong Israeli state for this reason even though obviously I personally have no responsibility at all....but not only that. Secondly, it's a microscopic part of the planet. Thirdly, they're a key ally in the War on Terror. And fourthly, the enemy of my enemy is my friend. I am so, so, so, so, so sick of Muslims and refuse to endorse or support any Muslim cause. Sorry Palestinians - you guys are getting screwed over, it's true - but perhaps blame the Mullahs in Tehran, blame the numerous other barbarous, scabrous theocracies and positions on life, for my ultimate lack of sympathy. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 6:07 pm Post subject: |
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| It should also be noted that the Palestinians voted in an organization that was designated as a terrorist group and known to commit terrorist attacks. If that's who they wish to govern them...People get the government they deserve. |
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*wanderlust*
Joined: 06 May 2007
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| Posted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 9:42 pm Post subject: |
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I always find this argument interesting. I do concede that jews have faced a history of prosecution, we all know the history of the haulocast as well as the other instances another poster brought to light. However, at what point does being the victim of prosecution and fascism therefore give the victim the right to be the aggressor?
I don't believe anyone disputes that Jews have the right to an independant state, however the on going conflict results (we're talking about the root here) from the history of the land of the current independant state not so much that basic idea. I personally do not support the actions of the Palestinian or the Israeli governments, however I think it's important to take a step back and make an attempt not to be ethnocentric.
We can blame Palastinians for electing a "terroist government" and say therefore they get their dues, or we can ask ourselves if our people suffered daily human rights abuses, suppression and occupation by the most powerful country (militarily) in the region backed by the most powerful (depending on who you ask) country militarily in the world how would you respond? Where does your hope lie in regaining your country which is presently occupied with the apparent political support of the world? This is how Palestinians view Isreal. Same as violence within inner cities or in other countries, it does nothing to simply condem the act and punish accordingly, if one ever hopes to erradicate any form of violence one first must identify the root. This means seeing the conflict from all perspectives and at times playing devils advocate.
This is not an attempt to justify Palestinian actions or to legitimise Hamas. However, this conflit has raged for a century and such oversimplifications achieve nothing. As the saying goes there are two sides to every story and than the truth. We as westerners know and sympthasise with the Israeli perspective because of our own history and population as well as the current political climate (i.e. the "war" on terror). |
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*wanderlust*
Joined: 06 May 2007
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| Posted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 9:45 pm Post subject: |
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| I'm not quite sure why the word curr ent is censored? |
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endo
Joined: 14 Mar 2004
Location: Seoul...my home
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| Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 3:24 am Post subject: |
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| Justin Hale wrote: |
| endo wrote: |
| So why not give them land in Europe to form a new homeland? |
It's better to give them a state where they originally came from. Europeans removed Jews from Israel, Europeans persecuted Jews for 2000 years, Europeans exterminated 6 million Jews....I think they owe them what ever they ask for. A strong state in the area of the planet dear to them isn't asking much IMO.
The state is central to the religion. Don't get me wrong, I've as much respect for the Jewish religion and its vile Torah as I have for a pile of garbage. A sad irony that Jews worship a dictator that makes Hitler seem a puddytat, but as much as I dislike absurd, obscene faiths, I do rather take the view that Europeans owe Jews a strong state in a part of the world of their choice. The Jews were treated like deicidal subhumans throughout Europe for 2000 years, which provided a vital pretext for the Holocaust. Mein Kampf mentions the word 'God' 69 times, an average of 2.5 times per chapter. Do I support the settlers in the West Bank and Gaza? No, I don't suppose so. Do I support post-1967 Israel? No, I don't suppose so. Do I support the State of Israel reconciled with the rights of the Palestinians? Yes, I suppose so, but I refuse to have a strong opinion about it, because the Palestinians as a collective entity, collective set of values and positions, are worthy of no respect at all.
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Your argument doesn't make any sense. You claim that the Europeans should own up to their actions against the Jew by creating a new homeland for them in a continent outside of Europe! |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 5:12 am Post subject: Re: Where is the outrage? |
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| friendoken wrote: |
Two dead Israeli soldiers and several dozen dead Palestinian women and children. So where is the international outrage? Were it the other way around I am certain there would be Israeli fingers poised over the launch buttons of their illegal nuclear weapons.
Will the madness ever end? Or, does anyone truly believe those involved want it to end? |
People do not have much sympathy for the Palestinians, because they are Arabs. When the British colonials were running the show they said who cares about Palestine, that it was basically inhabited by a bunch of dark people. Generally speaking, the Western world cares about the Israelis, because Israel's founders came from the Western world. Jesus was viewed as a Jew and there was the guilt over the holocaust. Many Europeans, however, have serious problems with the way Israel is behaving, but they don't want to say much about it because of the holocaust and because the US politically shelters them from criticism.
Terrorism from any side whether the Israelis or Arabs is morally reprehensible. It is a generalization to say that all those who fought Israel wanted to wipe it off the map. Barghouti who is in an Israeli jail believes in a two-state solution unlike Hamas, that is why Israel's thinking of releasing him, so the PA can deal with Hamas. Hamas, unfortunately, was encouraged by Israel in the 1980s so the PLO and Hamas could kill each other and then Hamas later grew and grew and started becoming a problem for Israel and the PLO. It is kind of like how Al Qaeda was promoted and then came back to haunt the U.S.
Will the madness end? Yes, I think the Israeli Jews and Palestinians will come to some kind of agreement at some point. I am not sure how many Israeli soldiers and civilians and Palestinian militants and civilians will die before that happens. It seems like killing happens and then negotiations happen and then killing happens again and then negotiations happen. Both sides are kind of weary of it in some ways. |
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Justin Hale
Joined: 24 Nov 2007
Location: the Straight Talk Express
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| Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 5:31 am Post subject: |
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| endo wrote: |
| Justin Hale wrote: |
| endo wrote: |
| So why not give them land in Europe to form a new homeland? |
It's better to give them a state where they originally came from. Europeans removed Jews from Israel, Europeans persecuted Jews for 2000 years, Europeans exterminated 6 million Jews....I think they owe them what ever they ask for. A strong state in the area of the planet dear to them isn't asking much IMO.
The state is central to the religion. Don't get me wrong, I've as much respect for the Jewish religion and its vile Torah as I have for a pile of garbage. A sad irony that Jews worship a dictator that makes Hitler seem a puddytat, but as much as I dislike absurd, obscene faiths, I do rather take the view that Europeans owe Jews a strong state in a part of the world of their choice. The Jews were treated like deicidal subhumans throughout Europe for 2000 years, which provided a vital pretext for the Holocaust. Mein Kampf mentions the word 'God' 69 times, an average of 2.5 times per chapter. Do I support the settlers in the West Bank and Gaza? No, I don't suppose so. Do I support post-1967 Israel? No, I don't suppose so. Do I support the State of Israel reconciled with the rights of the Palestinians? Yes, I suppose so, but I refuse to have a strong opinion about it, because the Palestinians as a collective entity, collective set of values and positions, are worthy of no respect at all.
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Your argument doesn't make any sense. You claim that the Europeans should own up to their actions against the Jew by creating a new homeland for them in a *beep* outside of Europe! |
Given what I've already said - re-read if necessary - why does it not make sense? |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 7:44 am Post subject: |
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Justin, the problem with creating a Jewish homeland in Palestine was because the British had promised the Arabs their freedom, and that is why they revolted against the Turks. The British also promised the Assyrian Christians in Iraq a homeland, and the Assyrians saved the British from being slaughtered by Arabs in Iraq. However, they did not get a homeland. It is easy to pontificate and say the Arabs or Palestinians are barbarous, but consider what the Spaniards did in South America and Spain, the British in Ireland and India, Palestine etc....
What of the Belgians in the Congo?
The Europeans are not collectively responsible for the holocaust.
What do the Irish have do with it, really? What about the Greeks?
It shouldn't be about promoting a homeland for Israelis and depriving Palestinians born there who are related to them a homeland.
What about promoting mutual justice rather than killing on both sides?
Why can't there be a win-win situation as people like Shlomo Ben Ami believe? Everyone should promote what is just for the two sides and will promote stability and peace and they should combat any fanatacism from both sides. That is our duty. Anything else plays into sectarian politics. |
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Funkdafied
Joined: 04 Nov 2007
Location: In Da House
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| Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 11:48 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| People do not have much sympathy for the Palestinians, because they are Arabs |
Stop right there, in fact I myself DID stop reading your post, and will not read it. This statement alone is enough to convince me that your thesis, whatever it may be, is incorrect. People don't have sympathy for the Palestinians, but it's not because they are Arabs, it's because they pursue thier political goals with terrorism. |
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