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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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 Posted: Sun Mar 02, 2008 2:50 am Post subject: |
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| thepeel wrote: |
The anti-American stuff aside, taking out SH could only be 'just' if the outcome improved upon the preceding situation. I don't think this is the case.
Anyways, we'll have to agree to disagree. The actual war itself doesn't bother me as much as the way it has been handled. |
I guess the question would be what would Saddam do if he got free. Containing Iraq wasn't a long term strategy.
Also if the US had taken down Saddam in 1993 instead of 2003 it would have been easier.
1) Al Qaeda wasn't going strong then.
2) Iran's nuclear program was just getting going them so they have less leverage too. |
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truthfulchat
Joined: 30 Sep 2007
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| Posted: Sun Mar 02, 2008 4:08 am Post subject: Still the US can not be compared to Islamic Extremist |
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| Nothing the US has done can be compared to what the Islamic Extremist have done. Islamic Extremist want everyone in the world to practice what they want and do what they want even kill innocent people to get their way. If the US wanted everyone to be like them as you guys say we have nuclear weapons we would bomb everyone as the Extremist use suicide bombs until they follow everything we do. When it comes to North Korea and Iran we are using diplomatic ways to work out the problems because we even know some governments who help these countries out are people we want on our side. I must admit Kim Jong Y'il is more willing than Saddam to show his nuclear facilities than Saddam was and really had no goal taking over the world, oh he may have wanted to unite South Korea with his government but that is as far as he wanted, but even he is scrapping those plans. As for the President of Iran, he is more a voice and really has no power since his government really is controlled by the Ayatollah (excuse my spellings of arabic title) who clearly does not want war with the US, that is why they are trying to solve it diplomatically. Saddam always tried to dodge diplomatic dealings because he kept his goals of control and to take control of other nearby countries, as I said before even though he had enemies, the enemies would have helped him because they have the same enemy USA. As for the Dresden conflict, hmm the ally that helped in this was Great Britain, though the Prime Minister at the time (Winston Churchill) tried to duck away from it. Even it was said that it was Churchills idea to do this bombing and US just went along with it. So the blame for this conflict is not solely on the US but Great Britain as well. Anyway, even this was not an act of terrorism because the goal really was to stop the railroad and communications, which is a typical war tactic. |
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stillnotking
Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Location: Oregon, USA
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| Posted: Sun Mar 02, 2008 12:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
| thepeel wrote: |
Anyways, we'll have to agree to disagree. The actual war itself doesn't bother me as much as the way it has been handled. |
I agree with that entirely. Yes, the war's handling has been disgraceful. |
Hmm... I thought I remembered you saying you were a lawyer, Kuros. Don't they train lawyers to ask Cui bono? any more?
How "disgraceful" or "incompetent" the war's handling has been depends entirely on where one sits. I don't see Halliburton shedding any tears over it. It's funny, though, how all the military-industrial buzzards fattening themselves on Iraq's carcass (and American tax money) are just assumed to be an unintended consequence... |
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stevemcgarrett
Joined: 24 Mar 2006
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| Posted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 6:33 am Post subject: |
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thepeel wrote:
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| The anti-American stuff aside, taking out SH could only be 'just' if the outcome improved upon the preceding situation. I don't think this is the case. Anyways, we'll have to agree to disagree. |
Let's do the body count math:
1. Had Saddam remained in power, the suppression and slaughter would have continued unabated regardless of sanctions. Check.
2. When Saddam stepped down from power, his sons would have taken over. More bloodshed by the Baathists. Check.
3. Eventually, perhaps decades later, a power vacuum would emerge at which time civil war would have inevitably broken out with no military or police forces to lessen the blow. Check.
Now compare that body count to what has occurred and the balance sheet will come out in favor of eliminating Saddam.
Brutally simple addition. |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 6:39 am Post subject: |
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Steve, now that the muslim civil war has been unleashed, they are going to kill eachother until Jesus comes home.
Anyways, it was terrible for America. It was terrible for Iraq. And it was a nicely wrapped gift to Iran. Bad idea. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 9:59 am Post subject: |
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| stillnotking wrote: |
| Kuros wrote: |
| thepeel wrote: |
Anyways, we'll have to agree to disagree. The actual war itself doesn't bother me as much as the way it has been handled. |
I agree with that entirely. Yes, the war's handling has been disgraceful. |
Hmm... I thought I remembered you saying you were a lawyer, Kuros. Don't they train lawyers to ask Cui bono? any more?
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I'm a 1L. So, I'm a few years away from practice. |
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jaykimf
Joined: 24 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 10:52 am Post subject: |
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| stevemcgarrett wrote: |
thepeel wrote:
| Quote: |
| The anti-American stuff aside, taking out SH could only be 'just' if the outcome improved upon the preceding situation. I don't think this is the case. Anyways, we'll have to agree to disagree. |
Let's do the body count math:
1. Had Saddam remained in power, the suppression and slaughter would have continued unabated regardless of sanctions. Check.
2. When Saddam stepped down from power, his sons would have taken over. More bloodshed by the Baathists. Check.
3. Eventually, perhaps decades later, a power vacuum would emerge at which time civil war would have inevitably broken out with no military or police forces to lessen the blow. Check.
Now compare that body count to what has occurred and the balance sheet will come out in favor of eliminating Saddam.
Brutally simple addition. |
It would be a simple addition if we knew what numbers to add. I'm sorry, but I really can't guess what you imagine the numbers to be that we should add. |
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Pligganease
Joined: 14 Sep 2004
Location: The deep south...
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| Posted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 5:07 pm Post subject: |
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I used to give a crap about people hating America. Then I realized a few things.
People need rivals or enemies in order to know their places in the natural order. Canadians don't have any enemies. They will claim it's because everyone likes them. However, the fact is that they don't have any enemies because no one really cares about them.
No one really goes around and says "I hate oatmeal!" Why? It's bland, and it doesn't really stir up any emotion in people.
So, Canadians really only claim to hate Americans. That's kinda sad considering that your average American thinks so little of Canada. Most Americans don't know much about Canada. Canadians attribute this to American stupidity, but I attribute it to the fact that Americans really don't need to know much about Canada.
Everyone needs a point or two to boast about. Canadians will often talk about how much bigger their country is and things of that sort. Then when asked why 90% of the country lives so close to the American border they will say, "Because the rest of the country is a frozen, barren wasteland!" It's like walking into a Costco that sells only mandoo, kimchi, and sliced pork. Yeah, it's all crap, but they have tons of it.
Canada is kinda like the lamprey, and the U.S. is the shark. The shark knows the lamprey is there, and the lamprey is a little bothersome, but it doesn't bother anyone enough to brush it off. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 5:36 pm Post subject: |
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I don't know. I like Canada. I'm guessing most educated anti-American Canadians are under the age of 30. IOW, a very particular subset of the population there.
As an American, I feel some cultural connection with Canada. I dunno, maybe it was because I lived in Maine, or maybe it was because I had some Canadian friends in college. Its just hard for me to really separate the U.S. and Canada. In fact, as someone who grew up in Maryland and New England, I feel a closer connection to Canadians than Southerners (nothing against the South, though).
If some Brit or Aussie started to talk too much crap on Canada, I think I'd have to step in. |
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some waygug-in
Joined: 25 Jan 2003
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Pligganease
Joined: 14 Sep 2004
Location: The deep south...
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| Posted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 5:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
I don't know. I like Canada. I'm guessing most educated anti-American Canadians are under the age of 30. IOW, a very particular subset of the population there.
As an American, I feel some cultural connection with Canada. I dunno, maybe it was because I lived in Maine, or maybe it was because I had some Canadian friends in college. Its just hard for me to really separate the U.S. and Canada. In fact, as someone who grew up in Maryland and New England, I feel a closer connection to Canadians than Southerners (nothing against the South, though). |
I never had any problems against Canada until I came to Korea. All of the Canadians I had ever met seemed to be quite nice. However, when I came here and met the fresh-out-of-university-full-of-piss-and-angst minority of Canadians, it rubbed me the wrong way. My girlfriend is Canadian, and she despises that crowd.
| Kuros wrote: |
| If some Brit or Aussie started to talk too much crap on Canada, I think I'd have to step in. |
I don't know. I feel more connected to Aussies than any other English speaking country's citizens. Why? I have no idea...  |
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Pligganease
Joined: 14 Sep 2004
Location: The deep south...
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| Posted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 5:58 pm Post subject: |
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That's funny. |
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Justin Hale
Joined: 24 Nov 2007
Location: the Straight Talk Express
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| Posted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 6:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Pligganease wrote: |
I used to give a crap about people hating America. Then I realized a few things.
People need rivals or enemies in order to know their places in the natural order. Canadians don't have any enemies. They will claim it's because everyone likes them. However, the fact is that they don't have any enemies because no one really cares about them.
No one really goes around and says "I hate oatmeal!" Why? It's bland, and it doesn't really stir up any emotion in people.
So, Canadians really only claim to hate Americans. That's kinda sad considering that your average American thinks so little of Canada. Most Americans don't know much about Canada. Canadians attribute this to American stupidity, but I attribute it to the fact that Americans really don't need to know much about Canada.
Everyone needs a point or two to boast about. Canadians will often talk about how much bigger their country is and things of that sort. Then when asked why 90% of the country lives so close to the American border they will say, "Because the rest of the country is a frozen, barren wasteland!" It's like walking into a Costco that sells only mandoo, kimchi, and sliced pork. Yeah, it's all crap, but they have tons of it.
Canada is kinda like the lamprey, and the U.S. is the shark. The shark knows the lamprey is there, and the lamprey is a little bothersome, but it doesn't bother anyone enough to brush it off. |
The first 3 paragraphs above are excellent, but then you totally screw up. I hate all this infighting between Canadians/Americans, Europeans/Americans, Commonwealth/Americans. I take great personal insult at the fetid bluff and bluster of those who take the contrary view. |
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Pligganease
Joined: 14 Sep 2004
Location: The deep south...
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| Posted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 6:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Justin Hale wrote: |
| I hate all this infighting between Canadians/Americans, Europeans/Americans, Commonwealth/Americans. I take great personal insult at the fetid bluff and bluster of those who take the contrary view. |
Then I take it you've never been the only American in a room full of drunk Canadians. (Redundant, I know..) |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 6:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Pligganease wrote: |
| Justin Hale wrote: |
| I hate all this infighting between Canadians/Americans, Europeans/Americans, Commonwealth/Americans. I take great personal insult at the fetid bluff and bluster of those who take the contrary view. |
Then I take it you've never been the only American in a room full of drunk Canadians. (Redundant, I know..) |
I have. I would always proclaim I was from Maine. Maritimers generally give some respect, and Western Canadians never give Americans trouble anyway. |
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