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loose_ends
Joined: 23 Jul 2007
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 Posted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 9:55 pm Post subject: Burning Conscience: Israeli Soldiers Speak Out |
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Burning Conscience: Israeli Soldiers Speak Out
A searing interview with Avichai Sharon and Noam Chayut, both veterans of the Israeli Defense Forces and members of Breaking the Silence. Sharon and Chayut served during the second intifada, an on-going bloodbath that has claimed the lives of over three thousand Palestinians and nine-hundred-fifty Israelis. After thorough introspection, these young men have chosen to speak out about their experiences as self-described "brutal occupiers of a disputed land." Producer: Sat Gwin |
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37MFa7ZKQWo&eurl=http://www.911blogger.com/node/14167
Rare look into the accounts of two young men from the IDF. |
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yawarakaijin
Joined: 08 Aug 2006
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| Posted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 11:32 pm Post subject: |
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I didn't watch your video. I don't need to. The Palestinians are terrorists. Maybe not every single one of them, but enough of them. In the fight against terrorism the Jewish state is obliged to do whatever it can to defeat such an enemy.
The mere fact that these soldiers have a different perspective than their governments' gives me all the cause and reason I need to categorically deny their testimony/personal beliefs.
I think I read somewhere that one of those men actually met a real life palestinian and didn't shoot him right on the spot. Obviously a terrorist apologist and someone whose word cannot be trusted. |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 12:41 am Post subject: |
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| yawarakaijin wrote: |
I didn't watch your video. I don't need to. The Palestinians are terrorists. Maybe not every single one of them, but enough of them. In the fight against terrorism the Jewish state is obliged to do whatever it can to defeat such an enemy.
The mere fact that these soldiers have a different perspective than their governments' gives me all the cause and reason I need to categorically deny their testimony/personal beliefs.
I think I read somewhere that one of those men actually met a real life palestinian and didn't shoot him right on the spot. Obviously a terrorist apologist and someone whose word cannot be trusted. |
Actually Israel ought to stop building settlements offer to withdraw to near 1967 borders and offer pay compensation to refugees in exchange for peace . Were they to do so they would have the clear moral high ground in the conflict . From there and only there they would be in the clear to do pretty much whatever they need to do to stop war against it.
On the other hand yawarakaijin you are a left wing whacko moonbat who can't be trusted primarily because you are so ignorant. |
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yawarakaijin
Joined: 08 Aug 2006
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| Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 1:08 am Post subject: |
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Actually Israel ought to stop building settlements offer to withdraw to near 1967 borders and offer pay compensation to refugees in exchange for peace . Were they to do so they would have the clear moral high ground in the conflict . From there and only there they would be in the clear to do pretty much whatever they need to do to stop war against it.
On the other hand yawarakaijin you are a left wing whacko moonbat who can't be trusted primarily because you are so ignorant. |
Actually, I agree with everything you just said in bold. So...you are also a left wing wacko moonbat???? Hmm, who would have known.
Kind of messes with you when people don't hold such ridiculously simplistic world views doesn't it? |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 1:28 am Post subject: |
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| And in those areas where the Arabs rule, in those lands that we too easily call "the Arab world" (it's a phrase from ARAMCO propaganda of the 1940s and 1950s), in the nearly two dozen lands they now rule, every non-Arab (see the blacks of the Sudan, see the Kurds of Iraq, see the Berbers of North Africa) and non-Muslim (see the Copts of Egypt, see the Maronites of Lebanon, see the Assyrians and Chaldeans of Iraq) group must constantly fight for its continued existence. |
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Every such group is forced to endure the steady pressure of Islam and of "Uruba" or Arabness, in a never-ending attempt to make these non-Arabs or non-Muslims forget their own history, through cultural and linguistic imperialism, or -- as with the black Africans in the Sudan, both the non-Muslims of the south, and the non-Arab Muslims of Darfur -- to simply be wiped out, or at least sufficiently reduced in numbers, so that the Arabs can inherit the land, and, what's more, the oil known to be in the south, and suspected to be in Darfur. In 1900 the population of the Sudan was almost entirely black African, with only a small Arab sliver in the north. That has changed. |
http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/020169.php
It would be nice if the "moonbats" (as Joo put it) would examine the wider context of the terrible situation Israel is in. There is a much larger pattern at work.
Arab/muslim supremacy (islam is Arab supremacy: take an Arab name, bow to Arabia, the koran can only be properly read in Arabic, the Arabs have a "special place", and all must make (if able) a short tourist junket to Arabia) is the elephant in the living room.
In the same way we would all shout and holler if China started offing the Ughers, Tibetans and Mongolians (and others) to clear the way for the Han it is time to take of the PC gloves and just speak the truth.
Israel has as much a right to exist as does Canada, China or Saudi. If people were shooting rockets into my town, I'd demand my government go *beep* them up. Gaza back to Egypt, Golan to Syria and what is left of the West Bank to Jordan. |
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sundubuman
Joined: 04 Feb 2003
Location: seoul
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| Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 5:40 am Post subject: |
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apparently, our oily friends the Saudis are miffed that Israel dare defend itself....
so its mouthpiece, Arab News, draws eveil Jews eating little Muslim babies....nice. Someone please summon a psychologist-anthropologist to help make sense of such a "cartoon"
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Junior
Joined: 18 Nov 2005
Location: the eye
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 7:26 am Post subject: |
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| yawarakaijin wrote: |
I didn't watch your video. I don't need to. The Palestinians are terrorists. Maybe not every single one of them, but enough of them. In the fight against terrorism the Jewish state is obliged to do whatever it can to defeat such an enemy.
The mere fact that these soldiers have a different perspective than their governments' gives me all the cause and reason I need to categorically deny their testimony/personal beliefs.
I think I read somewhere that one of those men actually met a real life palestinian and didn't shoot him right on the spot. Obviously a terrorist apologist and someone whose word cannot be trusted. |
There was no terrorism in the occupied territories against the Israelis until 1987 mostly. So, the Israelis occupied that area for 20 years before anything like that happened in a major form in the territories. They also built settlements which led to ethnic cleansing and the authorities were expelling both Muslims and Christians from Jerusalem by confiscating their ID cards. All these are historically documented. The Israeli human rights group B'tselem has documented the abuse of Palestinians' human rights.
You can find former Israeli soldiers who went to northern India to take a look at themselves after the brutal conflicts. Many of them saw bad things, war crimes. It doesn't mean Russians and Americans don't engage in war crimes as well. Terrorism by Palestinians does not justify violation of international law, war crimes, settlements. One right doesn't make a right. I am sure some Palestinians make the same argument of a good Jew is a dead Jew, and you are making the argument that a good Arab is a dead one. We are talking about people and killing someone is not that simple. Rabin, himself, said stop the killing. It is a heavy price for a nation to have to send young men to be in the territories. There is a psychological toll on the nation that you don't have to pay. Both sides
are suffering.
I like that new group that brings former militants with soldiers together.
How about a world where brothers in arms drop their arms and use only their physical arms when coming face to face? I am not some free loving, peace-nik, but I believe in peace. Documentaries with former soliders talking about what some of their comrades did is nothing new. It is not surprising. It doesn't mean the majority of soldiers do this, but often the commanders overlook it, and soldiers don't want to inform on each other, so it can weigh on them psychologically. And for many that has been difficult. Remember what happened to the guy who revealed the Abu Ghraib photos? I believe his life was hell after that. |
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stevemcgarrett
Joined: 24 Mar 2006
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| Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 7:54 am Post subject: |
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| Meanwhile back at the kibbutz, the rockets keep coming from Gaza. |
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stillnotking
Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Location: Oregon, USA
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| Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 9:00 am Post subject: |
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| Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote: |
| Actually Israel ought to stop building settlements offer to withdraw to near 1967 borders and offer pay compensation to refugees in exchange for peace . Were they to do so they would have the clear moral high ground in the conflict . From there and only there they would be in the clear to do pretty much whatever they need to do to stop war against it. |
Wow, we agree on something... 
The biggest thing that needs to happen right now is for the US to stop playing games about recognizing the Hamas government. You can disagree with a government while still recognizing it as legitimately elected. Hell, if that wasn't the case, I would have been refusing to pay taxes for the last seven years -- and I'd have a much better case on the "not legitimately elected angle" too. 
Basically we need to stop empowering the extremist elements on both sides. This starts by stopping the pretense that a pro-Israel policy is always and automatically the same as a pro-Likud policy. That would eliminate most of Hamas' reason for existence right there, and the adults could get back to a negotiated settlement... which is a distinct possibility, whatever the crazies say. |
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loose_ends
Joined: 23 Jul 2007
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| Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 2:41 pm Post subject: |
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Did anyone here actually watch the video?
Its only 30 minutes... |
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*wanderlust*
Joined: 06 May 2007
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| Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 3:11 pm Post subject: |
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| yawarakaijin wrote: |
I think I read somewhere that one of those men actually met a real life palestinian and didn't shoot him right on the spot. Obviously a terrorist apologist and someone whose word cannot be trusted. |
Imagine, not arbitrarily shooting a Palestinian for merely existing in a turbulent polictical climate.
Especially a real life one as opposed to those fake ones that keep croping up. |
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yawarakaijin
Joined: 08 Aug 2006
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| Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 3:25 pm Post subject: |
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| *wanderlust* wrote: |
| yawarakaijin wrote: |
I think I read somewhere that one of those men actually met a real life palestinian and didn't shoot him right on the spot. Obviously a terrorist apologist and someone whose word cannot be trusted. |
Imagine, not arbitrarily shooting a Palestinian for merely existing in a turbulent polictical climate.
Especially a real life one as opposed to those fake ones that keep croping up. |
 Yeah, them fake ones are the tricky ones. |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 6:26 pm Post subject: |
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| loose_ends wrote: |
Did anyone here actually watch the video?
Its only 30 minutes... |
I have watched the video. It does not surprise me. I've heard things before. Sometimes Israeli officers turn a blind eye to many things. There are many things that are covered up. I have been to the West Bank and know a family in Nablus where they had to house Israeli soldiers in their apartment. You are not encouraged in many cases to look at the Palestinians as human beings.
Of course, I am sure Hamas has a similar mentality since they engage in suicide bombings. The IDF can't tell about everything that goes on, because they want to present a certain image. What is happening violates the moral beliefs of many of their grandparents and great-grandparents who were born in Europe. In the end, we are talking about fellow human beings. If a human being is abused regardless of their race, then it's a shame. Many of the things described by the soldiers are clear war crimes, and too often people who have nothing to do with fighting get harmed. You have young officers who have no clear criteria, and are not sure what exactly to do. It is easy to end up doing what some of the soldiers did. You do what you are told. |
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yawarakaijin
Joined: 08 Aug 2006
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| Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 6:37 pm Post subject: |
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| I also watched the entire clip. I became pretty good friends with two Israelis I met while living in Kushiro, Japan. It's a pretty small town and most of the foreigners were pretty tight. We would often get together at each others apartments to watch movies or drink. They were nice enough guys but some of the stories they told about the time they were in the army were really disturbing. Nothing in that clip particulary shocked me. |
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