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Pluto
Joined: 19 Dec 2006
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 Posted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 1:20 pm Post subject: 'Sharia Creep' at Harvard University |
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Harvard University has moved to make Muslim women more comfortable in the gym by instituting women-only access times six hours a week to accommodate religious customs that make it difficult for some students to work out in the presence of men.
Men have not been allowed to enter the Quadrangle Recreational Athletic Center during certain times since Jan. 28, after members of the Harvard Islamic Society and the Harvard Women's Center petitioned the university for a more comfortable environment for women.
Harvard Islamic Society's Islamic Knowledge Committee officer Ola Aljawhary, a junior, said the women-only hours are being tested on a trial basis. The special gym hours will be analyzed over Spring Break to determine if they will continue, she said.
Aljawhary said that she does not believe that the women-only gym hours discriminate against men. |
More...
It seems as though the phenomenon known as 'Sharia Creep' is beginning to take hold in the United States. Also you should notice that while the minority have 'needs', the majority simply have 'preferences.' I also seem to remember someone saying that when Christians voiced their concerns 40-50 years ago, the faculty of these same Ivy league Universities laughed them straight off campus. Though, nowadays, when Muslims voice those same concerns today, we are told to sacrifice in the name of tolerance. Oh dear, is that what being 'progressive' means today? Secular liberals disdain Christianity yet they fall all over themselves to accommodate Islam  |
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stillnotking
Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Location: Oregon, USA
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| Posted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 3:07 pm Post subject: |
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Sharia creep? Want to elaborate on how that works, maybe give some examples of the process & end state?
"Today, six hours of women-only gym access per week. Tomorrow, executing blasphemers at halftime during sporting events!" |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 3:09 pm Post subject: |
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| I don't think this is evidence of much beyond the fact that Harvard is run by silly liberals. |
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stillnotking
Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Location: Oregon, USA
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| Posted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 3:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
| I don't think this is evidence of much beyond the fact that Harvard is run by silly liberals. |
It's not even evidence of that. My school was anything but a liberal bastion, and they routinely made concessions like this to minority student groups. I recall they even started making vegan meals available in the school cafeteria, at a financial loss (since hardly anyone ate them).
The squeaky wheel gets the grease. It's really as simple as that. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 3:30 pm Post subject: |
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People come on this board all the time to complain that they are always treated as outsiders. Clearly the Korean approach is superior to Harvard's approach. No country should be making concessions to foreigners who come in. It shows weakness and just encourages them to ask for more.
Once again, Korea shows the way toward the future.
PS: If you haven't already, go to the Fruits of the Cold War Victory thread and watch the video. It shows what will happen in America if we don't stop this nonsense of foreign influences. |
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Pluto
Joined: 19 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 4:11 pm Post subject: |
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| stillnotking wrote: |
Sharia creep? Want to elaborate on how that works, maybe give some examples of the process & end state?
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Where Sharia creep takes us is a matter of debate. Simply put, it's a matter of Muslims using our values against us. Examples include France, Canada's kangaroo court is another; in fact some predictions say that France will be 25% Muslim by 2030! As for the United States, thankfully we have a strong basis, the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, against any sort of Sharia nonsense. However, don't think Muslims and the Multicult that supports them will do their best to litigate towards that reality.
| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
People come on this board all the time to complain that they are always treated as outsiders. Clearly the Korean approach is superior to Harvard's approach. No country should be making concessions to foreigners who come in. It shows weakness and just encourages them to ask for more.
Once again, Korea shows the way toward the future. |
Western Societies tend to be more open, tolerant and pluralistic; more so than Korea anyway. As for comparing our way against say the Saudi way, I suppose moral relativists spend a lot of time trying to wrap their heads around this issue. As for me, there is no debate; Western values are better, pure and simple. |
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Hater Depot
Joined: 29 Mar 2005
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| Posted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 4:34 pm Post subject: |
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Matthew Yglesias
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Suppose I were to inform [you] that Harvard, like all American institutions of higher education of which I'm aware, shuts down and creates a holiday in late December that just so happens to coincide with an important familial and religious observance for Christians whereas no such allowance is made for Passover visits. Christianism? Worse, it happens in public high schools and elementary schools all across the country, the very same country in which no mail can be delivered on Sunday! Meanwhile, when I was a student at Harvard there was a ban on having anything on fire in a dorm room and also a movement to create an exemption so that Jewish students could light Hanukkah candles. I don't recall whether or not the exemption was granted, but if it was that certainly wouldn't constitute the dawning of a new era of Jewish theocratic rule at the university. I know for a fact that they allow students to reschedule exams for religious reasons, like a Jewish or Muslim obligation to avoid taking an exam on a Saturday (no exams are scheduled on Sundays).
There's a range of things one can think about these policies. The preferential treatment granted by public institutions to Christmas rankles, but given the vast number of Christmas-celebrators in the country it's also inevitable and practical. The "no mail on Sundays" thing is poor public policy and obviously has religious origins of a sort, but it's hardly some intolerable burden on minorities, it's just bad public policy. Letting people reschedule exams for religious reasons, but not just because they happen to feel like taking them in some other order, seems like an eminently fair and practical way of dealing with the situation. New York City public schools make the Jewish High Holy Days a day off, due to the city's large Jewish population, most other jurisdictions don't do that but will look the other way if Jewish kids don't show up -- reasonable responses to the objective situation in both cases.
Finding a way to accommodate observant Muslims' concerns about co-ed workouts, in short, is hardly some per se outrageous violation of a strict U.S. tradition of secularism. Is the particular way they've done this unduly burdensome? I think to say whether or not it is you'd need to look at the situation and the available alternatives in some detail. |
And according to a commenter there...
| Quote: |
| One should also note that the "Quadrangle" is one of the most distant outposts of Harvard. Not only are there many athletic workout facilities at Harvard, but the only one being set aside for women-only workout hours is the most isolated, distant one. (I'm assuming that "Quadrangle" refers to "the Quad", here) |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 4:36 pm Post subject: |
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| As for me, there is no debate; Western values are better, pure and simple. |
In this particular case, which Western values are you claiming are better: a) women exercising with skin and hair showing, or b) tolerance?
Please tell me you aren't one of those who believe in tolerance as long as it's other people tolerating your whims and not the other way around. Tolerance and compromise sound good as abstract ideals, but when put into practice, they are always annoying. Change is not easy. It's much easier and comfortable to be able to leave tolerance up on the shelf and not actually practice it. It's much like daydreaming, in a way. It's far easier to lay on the couch and daydream about making the winning basket in the national championship than it is to get off your butt and go out in the driveway and sweat a little.
I'm curious about this Sharia Creep phenomenon. Is it similar to Catholic Creep? At one time we kept all the Catholics penned up in Maryland. Then the liberals started letting in the Irish and before we knew it, we good Protestants had to eat fish sticks for school lunch on Friday and then we had an Irish Catholic president. Are we going to slide down the slippery slope from 6 young women using a gym for a few hours a week to banning pork chops and ham sandwiches from our diet, then cutting off the right hand of thieves?
Last edited by Ya-ta Boy on Sat Mar 08, 2008 4:47 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Czarjorge
Joined: 01 May 2007
Location: I now have the same moustache, and it is glorious.
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| Posted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 4:46 pm Post subject: |
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Ever heard of Curves? Ladies only gym time is nothing new. This seems to be as much about gender as religion. If only they did fattie only gym times. Well, that would probably just be an empty gym, but it's a good idea. Maybe insecure people with poor body image only time at the gym.
And who is this Sharia creep. We should beat him up. How did he get into Harvard anyway? They'll let anyone in now. |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 5:40 pm Post subject: Re: 'Sharia Creep' at Harvard University |
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Muslims are what? 10% of the US population? at most? Who cares what an elite university does. 6 hours a week, OMG!
| Quote: |
| No men are allowed in the gym between 3 p.m. and 5 p.m. on Mondays, and between 8 a.m. and 10 a.m on Tuesdays and Thursdays. Even the staff during those times is all women. |
| Quote: |
| Because of its location at the edge of campus, it is the university's least used gym, Mitchell said. |
wow, such a pain.
Congrats to harvard for getting more free press.
Pluto, don't you lean towards libertarianism? Who cares what a private institution does? |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 5:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Pluto wrote: |
| Western Societies tend to be more open, tolerant and pluralistic... |
We should be careful about these kinds of comparisons. At different times and places, Islamic society and law demonstrated tolerant and pluralistic qualities (the Ottomans, the Mughals before Aurangzeb, for example). And at different times and places, Western civ. has demonstrated intolerance (the Inquisition, for example).
My point is that no essentialized "Orient" or "Western civ" has ever existed. Both have changed in multiple ways over time -- and both continue changing today.
This being said I do agree with those who point to many Muslims' intolerance and extremism today, enforcing Islamic law according to its harshest interpretation, etc. And I agree with those who question the multicultural people on the left, who seem oblivious to all of this and would simply let them in, come what may...
Here is how William Dalrymple describes Aurangzeb's rule and its effects, for example.
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The Mughals...define Islam at its most tolerant and pluralistic. Their Empire was built in coalition with India's Hindu majority...Indeed the Mughals succeeded almost as much through tact and conciliation as by war: their method, which came as much from religious conviction as realpolitik, was to make Mughal rule acceptable to the Empire's overwhelmingly non-Muslim population...
But what was built by the tact and conciliation of the first five of the Great Mughals was destroyed by the harsh and repressive rule of the sixth. Shah Jahan's son Aurangzeb was a ruler as bigoted as the best of his predecessors had been tolerant. The Islamic 'ulama were given a free hand to impose the harshest strictures of sharia law. The playing of music was banned, as was wine-drinking, hashish smoking and prostitution. Hindu temples across the country were destroyed. Aurangzeb reimposed the jizya tax on Hindus, and executed Guru Teg Bahadus, the ninth of the great teachers of the Sikhs. The religious wounds Aurangzeb opened literally tore the country in two. On this death in 1707, the Empire fragmented... |
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R. S. Refugee
Joined: 29 Sep 2004
Location: Shangra La, ROK
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| Posted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 6:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
PS: If you haven't already, go to the Fruits of the Cold War Victory thread and watch the video. It shows what will happen in America if we don't stop this nonsense of foreign influences. |
It gets worse: http://youtube.com/watch?v=n2UJp3vN-y0 |
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Pluto
Joined: 19 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 6:15 pm Post subject: Re: 'Sharia Creep' at Harvard University |
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| bucheon bum wrote: |
Muslims are what? 10% of the US population? at most? Who cares what an elite university does. 6 hours a week, OMG!
| Quote: |
| No men are allowed in the gym between 3 p.m. and 5 p.m. on Mondays, and between 8 a.m. and 10 a.m on Tuesdays and Thursdays. Even the staff during those times is all women. |
| Quote: |
| Because of its location at the edge of campus, it is the university's least used gym, Mitchell said. |
wow, such a pain.
Congrats to harvard for getting more free press.
Pluto, don't you lean towards libertarianism? Who cares what a private institution does? |
Actually, I tend to lean more towards economic liberalism and policies of strong defense. That being said, my first thought was why don't these muslim women just open their own gym. Instead, they petitioned the University and their attitude is to just tell everyone to deal with it. Though at the end of the day, Harvard is a private institution. They're free to enact any policies they see fit. I just think its silly that people on the multicultural left don't think about what is happening; they're clueless. Give them an inch...
| Gopher wrote: |
We should be careful about these kinds of comparisons. At different times and places, Islamic society and law demonstrated tolerant and pluralistic qualities (the Ottomans, the Mughals before Aurangzeb, for example). And at different times and places, Western civ. has demonstrated intolerance (the Inquisition, for example).
My point is that no essentialized "Orient" or "Western civ" has ever existed. Both have changed in multiple ways over time -- and both continue changing today.
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Noted. Contemporary Western societies tend to be more open, tolerant and pluralistic than those of, say, Saudi Arabia or Sudan. |
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mistermasan
Joined: 20 Sep 2007
Location: 10+ yrs on Dave's ESL cafe
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| Posted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 6:22 pm Post subject: |
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harvard is rich enough to build separate gender gyms.
either way, public gyms are disgusting.
all over the US there is a franchised "ladies" only gym called "curves" (or something like that). if a private corp can have hundreds of locations due to women willing to pay not to have to exercise near unknown strangers let them pay.
single sex gyms? fine. but if the other guys have reduced access in comparison to the ladies such unfair. |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 6:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
People come on this board all the time to complain that they are always treated as outsiders. Clearly the Korean approach is superior to Harvard's approach. No country should be making concessions to foreigners who come in. It shows weakness and just encourages them to ask for more.
Once again, Korea shows the way toward the future.
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 Thanks for giving me a good chuckle this morning Yata.
This is a storm in a teacup. It's not the only gym at Havard, and it's the least used one according to the report. It's only a few hours a week. And it's not just muslim women who want to exercise or swim away from the prying eyes of men. In England we have this kind of thing - for example "women's only" morning once a week at the council swimming pool. Why should any woman be forced to exercise in front of men, if she doesn't like to? The success of Curves goes to show that it's not only muslims who have this preference.
As a skinny teenager with a big bust, I absolutely hated going swimming in mixed sessions. I have every sympathy for others who also find it an ordeal, muslim or not. |
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