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matthewwoodford
Joined: 01 Oct 2003
Location: Location, location, location.
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 Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2003 6:08 pm Post subject: |
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My Korean gf's take on this whole Ohno situation is that he misunderstood the Korean press and vastly overestimated the danger to himself. It's typical Korean behaviour to yell and shout at someone they dislike but it doesn't mean any actual violence is intended or likely.
Just a thought before you all get carried away with sympathy at poor Ohno's 'intimidation'.
Matt |
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Holyjoe
Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: Away for a cuppa
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| Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2003 6:12 pm Post subject: |
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You folks arguing about the standard of refereeing in the World Cup would do well to have a wee read of the following - an article by Eoghan Sweeney, sports writer at the Korea Times, which appeared in the paper on 23rd June 2002.
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Whose Conspiracy?
By Eoghan Sweeney
Chief Football Writer
It has taken the form of a trial. Media, coaches and players - generally from countries whose teams are now on their summer holidays - arm themselves with statistics that add up to "evidence'' proving there is a conspiracy by South Korea.
Taken at face value, the figures seem compelling. Portugal had two red cards against the home side. Italy had one. Italy and Spain had "goals'' disallowed. Clear proof of favoritism - or is it?
Take these incidents one by one, rather than as a single lump, and the picture is somewhat different.
Portugal did indeed have two players sent off. Both were thoroughly deserved. Joao Pinto's airborne, two-footed lunge from behind on Park Ji-sung was one of the worst fouls of the entire tournament. Beto received two yellow cards, both for blatantly taking down a player who had beaten him - a clearly bookable offense.
Football has rules for a reason, and when a team runs foul of them, who is to blame? Rather than showing bias, the referee was applying those rules.
Francesco Totti could consider himself unlucky for his second yellow card. Unlucky, but not dreadfully sinned against. There was contact when the Italian forward went down under a clean tackle, Song Chong-gug getting a foot in and taking the ball away, but the melodramatic appeals for a penalty that may have decided the game hardly helped his case.
The next statistic is that Italy had a goal disallowed, and Spain, two.
Again, there were poor decisions. Tommasi appeared to be onside in the South Korea-Italy match, and the ball was clearly still in play when Spain's Joaquin crossed for Morientes.
To call these "disallowed goals,'' however, ignores the fact that Lee Woon-jae, one of the tournament's best goalkeepers, made no attempt to save.
Indeed, a biased referee would have been well within his rights to book Tommasi for running on and putting the ball in the net after the whistle had gone and the South Koreans had stopped playing.
The assertion on one of the world's most influential football websites that "Spain were robbed of a golden-goal winner'' is a shameful overstatement of the reality of the situation, and it is interesting that having originally said that Fernando Morientes had headed home "with goalkeeper Lee Woon-jae stranded,'' this latter part was later removed, presumably after someone had paid more attention to the replay.
Two poor decisions, certainly, but "two goals disallowed'' sounds a tad exaggerated.
Spain did have one disallowed in the second half, but again replays show a clear foul.
Just as disturbing as this skewed use of statistics is the tendency to take a one-sided view.
South Korea have benefited from poor refereeing decisions. That is a simple fact. Just as simple is that so have other teams. Furthermore, South Korea have also suffered from poor decisions.
Quite how Spanish midfielder Romero escaped unpunished for two scandalous tackles is mystifying. Had Kim Nam-il gone in, studs up, into a Spanish player's shin, ending his involvement in the game, and got off scot-free, rather than vice-versa, it would no doubt have been cited as further proof of a "fix." How would things have turned out if Spain had been down to 10 men from the 13th minute on?
Joaquin had a marvelous match, but won such a number of dubious free-kicks that one had to wonder whether the referee had his mind partly on the disgraceful public intervention by Sepp Blatter the day before. Is the FIFA chief so naive as to think fair play could be served by publicly supporting Italy, a team who were claiming to have been robbed by South Korea and the officials?
Ironically, South Korea were among the first victims the last time FIFA put pressure on referees, Ha Seok-ju getting red-carded against Mexico in 1998 for a tackle from behind shortly after the governing body had ordered a clampdown and thrown players and officials into confusion.
Watching the quarterfinal, Ha must have been bemused to see Romero clatter into Song Chong-gug in identical fashion in the second half and escape without even a booking.
Italian players twice got the benefit of the doubt when swinging the arm into players' faces in a manner that in the English Premier League at least is generally punished with red. Totti got yellow for felling Kim Nam-il; Vieri broke Kim Tae-young's nose without any repercussions.
Anyone looking at statistics might be interested to note that South Korea have conceded more free-kicks than any other team in the World Cup. It would take some stretch of the imagination to see them as being among the tournament's dirtier sides.
Of course, it is fascinating to have conspiracy stories flying around. It also helps fallen giants deflect responsibility for their own shortcomings - We didn't really lose; we were robbed. It is also misleading, and detracts from the achievements of a team who have worked their socks off to get to where they are. |
Indeed, the disallowed Morientes goal theory is complicated even further by the fact that although the ball was still in play when Joaquin crossed (what most folk saw), the linesman says he flagged for the ball arcing out of the field when he crossed it. The cross was made on the line (still in play), but any half-decent cross from that sort of position has a curve on it. TV evidence doesn't conclusively prove whether this is correct or not, however the linesman was in a perfect position to judge it, the cameras were not. Also, such fouls are not uncommon when corner kicks are taken so it's not as if he was enforcing a rarely-used rule.
A clear foul in the second half, and a cross that swung out of play in extra time... doesn't sound so much like a conspiracy to me, rather just following the laws of the game.
Last edited by Holyjoe on Wed Nov 26, 2003 7:42 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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kiwiboy_nz_99
Joined: 05 Jul 2003
Location: ...Enlightenment...
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| Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2003 7:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Holyjoe, excellent post, exactly what I meant to say but didn't know about that article. Sour grapes to Italy and Spain. |
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sid
Joined: 02 Feb 2003
Location: Berkshire, England
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| Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2003 7:40 pm Post subject: |
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| matthewwoodford wrote: |
My Korean gf's take on this whole Ohno situation is that he misunderstood the Korean press and vastly overestimated the danger to himself. It's typical Korean behaviour to yell and shout at someone they dislike but it doesn't mean any actual violence is intended or likely.
Just a thought before you all get carried away with sympathy at poor Ohno's 'intimidation'.
Matt |
I don't think you can criticise Ohno for being cautious but it does seem that in Korea a death-threat ('Juk-o-lae?') is the equivalent of 'You're annoying me'. |
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Gwangjuboy
Joined: 08 Jul 2003
Location: England
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| Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2003 8:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Holyjoe wrote: |
You folks arguing about the standard of refereeing in the World Cup would do well to have a wee read of the following - an article by Eoghan Sweeney, sports writer at the Korea Times, which appeared in the paper on 23rd June 2002.
| Quote: |
Whose Conspiracy?
By Eoghan Sweeney
Chief Football Writer
It has taken the form of a trial. Media, coaches and players - generally from countries whose teams are now on their summer holidays - arm themselves with statistics that add up to "evidence'' proving there is a conspiracy by South Korea.
Taken at face value, the figures seem compelling. Portugal had two red cards against the home side. Italy had one. Italy and Spain had "goals'' disallowed. Clear proof of favoritism - or is it?
Take these incidents one by one, rather than as a single lump, and the picture is somewhat different.
Portugal did indeed have two players sent off. Both were thoroughly deserved. Joao Pinto's airborne, two-footed lunge from behind on Park Ji-sung was one of the worst fouls of the entire tournament. Beto received two yellow cards, both for blatantly taking down a player who had beaten him - a clearly bookable offense.
Football has rules for a reason, and when a team runs foul of them, who is to blame? Rather than showing bias, the referee was applying those rules.
Francesco Totti could consider himself unlucky for his second yellow card. Unlucky, but not dreadfully sinned against. There was contact when the Italian forward went down under a clean tackle, Song Chong-gug getting a foot in and taking the ball away, but the melodramatic appeals for a penalty that may have decided the game hardly helped his case.
The next statistic is that Italy had a goal disallowed, and Spain, two.
Again, there were poor decisions. Tommasi appeared to be onside in the South Korea-Italy match, and the ball was clearly still in play when Spain's Joaquin crossed for Morientes.
To call these "disallowed goals,'' however, ignores the fact that Lee Woon-jae, one of the tournament's best goalkeepers, made no attempt to save.
Indeed, a biased referee would have been well within his rights to book Tommasi for running on and putting the ball in the net after the whistle had gone and the South Koreans had stopped playing.
The assertion on one of the world's most influential football websites that "Spain were robbed of a golden-goal winner'' is a shameful overstatement of the reality of the situation, and it is interesting that having originally said that Fernando Morientes had headed home "with goalkeeper Lee Woon-jae stranded,'' this latter part was later removed, presumably after someone had paid more attention to the replay.
Two poor decisions, certainly, but "two goals disallowed'' sounds a tad exaggerated.
Spain did have one disallowed in the second half, but again replays show a clear foul.
Just as disturbing as this skewed use of statistics is the tendency to take a one-sided view.
South Korea have benefited from poor refereeing decisions. That is a simple fact. Just as simple is that so have other teams. Furthermore, South Korea have also suffered from poor decisions.
Quite how Spanish midfielder Romero escaped unpunished for two scandalous tackles is mystifying. Had Kim Nam-il gone in, studs up, into a Spanish player's shin, ending his involvement in the game, and got off scot-free, rather than vice-versa, it would no doubt have been cited as further proof of a "fix." How would things have turned out if Spain had been down to 10 men from the 13th minute on?
Joaquin had a marvelous match, but won such a number of dubious free-kicks that one had to wonder whether the referee had his mind partly on the disgraceful public intervention by Sepp Blatter the day before. Is the FIFA chief so naive as to think fair play could be served by publicly supporting Italy, a team who were claiming to have been robbed by South Korea and the officials?
Ironically, South Korea were among the first victims the last time FIFA put pressure on referees, Ha Seok-ju getting red-carded against Mexico in 1998 for a tackle from behind shortly after the governing body had ordered a clampdown and thrown players and officials into confusion.
Watching the quarterfinal, Ha must have been bemused to see Romero clatter into Song Chong-gug in identical fashion in the second half and escape without even a booking.
Italian players twice got the benefit of the doubt when swinging the arm into players' faces in a manner that in the English Premier League at least is generally punished with red. Totti got yellow for felling Kim Nam-il; Vieri broke Kim Tae-young's nose without any repercussions.
Anyone looking at statistics might be interested to note that South Korea have conceded more free-kicks than any other team in the World Cup. It would take some stretch of the imagination to see them as being among the tournament's dirtier sides.
Of course, it is fascinating to have conspiracy stories flying around. It also helps fallen giants deflect responsibility for their own shortcomings - We didn't really lose; we were robbed. It is also misleading, and detracts from the achievements of a team who have worked their socks off to get to where they are. |
Indeed, the disallowed Morientes goal theory is complicated even further by the fact that although the ball was still in play when Joaquin crossed (what most folk saw), the linesman says he flagged for the ball arcing out of the field when he crossed it. The cross was made on the line (still in play), but any half-decent cross from that sort of position has a curve on it. TV evidence doesn't conclusively prove whether this is correct or not, however the linesman was in a perfect position to judge it, the cameras were not. Also, such fouls are not uncommon when corner kicks are taken so it's not as if he was enforcing a rarely-used rule.
A clear foul in the second half, and a cross that swung out of play in extra time... doesn't sound so much like a conspiracy to me, rather just following the laws of the game. |
I know which newspapers I would rather read. I think reports by the English newpapers are higher in quality than those of the "globally recognised" Korea Times. I pity your position if the best evidence you can put forward is some rubbish written by someone with an obvious axe to grind. Not to mention that it derived from that poor excuse for a newspaper. |
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kiwiboy_nz_99
Joined: 05 Jul 2003
Location: ...Enlightenment...
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| Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2003 9:26 pm Post subject: |
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I pity your position if the best evidence you can put forward is some rubbish written by someone with an obvious axe to grind. Not to mention that it derived from that poor excuse for a newspaper.
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And you clearly have no axe to grind, huh! Suck it up sucker.
Let's face facts, what is really happening here is the people who support Spain and Italy and really wanted them to do well are still shocked and stunned that they were beaten by an admittedly lesser team, but a team that played out of their skins on the day and made good. Korea were better on the day, and that's what counts in sport, not past reputation. I emphasise again what the article said, Spain and Italy played rough and were lucky to not get more cards.
Well beaten! |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2003 10:04 pm Post subject: |
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My Korean gf's take on this whole Ohno situation is that he misunderstood the Korean press and vastly overestimated the danger to himself. It's typical Korean behaviour to yell and shout at someone they dislike but it doesn't mean any actual violence is intended or likely.
Just a thought before you all get carried away with sympathy at poor Ohno's 'intimidation'.
Matt |
I thought about this, too. In North America, radio shock jocks get death threats all the time, but with one notable exception(Alan Berg), nothing ever comes of them, and the jocks usually just laugh it off as part of the territory. I really doubt anything would have happened to Ohno had he come to Korea.
But, the people who call in death threats to a radio station are usually not trying to improve the image of their communities. The nationalists who threatened Ohno, on the other hand, are probably the kind of people who want Korea to be seen as a towering and respected force on the world stage, but haven't quite mastered the basic lessons of public relations. Rule # 1: don't scare international athletes away from your sporting events by threatening their lives. The funny thing is, most of these belligerents probably think that they've INCREASED the world's respect for Korea by scaring off a famous athlete. |
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ulsanchris
Joined: 19 Jun 2003
Location: take a wild guess
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| Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2003 10:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Some of my students felt Ohno was in for a beating if he came to Korea. Maybe not killed, but, if a group of koreans could have gotten their hands on him, deffinately beaten up. |
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Joe Thanks
Joined: 01 Oct 2003
Location: Dudleyville
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| Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2003 10:59 pm Post subject: |
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I thought about this, too. In North America, radio shock jocks get death threats all the time, but with one notable exception(Alan Berg), nothing ever comes of them, and the jocks usually just laugh it off as part of the territory. |
That's what you THINK. Howard Stern packs heat. Mancow Miller packs heat. Art Bell packs heat. Bill O'Reilly packs heat. Limbaugh packs heat or has escorts. All for the same reason Alan Berg probably should have. Want more examples?
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| I really doubt anything would have happened to Ohno had he come to Korea. |
From the nation where riots are weekly and they get more violent ala Buan.
Yeah, NOTHING would have happened. 
As the addage goes "better safe than sorry."
It is also a brillant protest and middle finger to SK jingoistic punk ass beeyotches that the U. S. team completely boycotts the po-dunk event.
Joe |
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Gwangjuboy
Joined: 08 Jul 2003
Location: England
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| Posted: Thu Nov 27, 2003 12:17 am Post subject: |
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| kiwiboy_nz_99 wrote: |
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I pity your position if the best evidence you can put forward is some rubbish written by someone with an obvious axe to grind. Not to mention that it derived from that poor excuse for a newspaper.
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And you clearly have no axe to grind, huh! Suck it up sucker.
Let's face facts, what is really happening here is the people who support Spain and Italy and really wanted them to do well are still shocked and stunned that they were beaten by an admittedly lesser team, but a team that played out of their skins on the day and made good. Korea were better on the day, and that's what counts in sport, not past reputation. I emphasise again what the article said, Spain and Italy played rough and were lucky to not get more cards.
Well beaten! |
I ommited to mention one thing. In that report it states that Spain had two goals dissallowed, when in fact they had three dissallowed. But of course, you will know that because you have watched the game "over and over." Dreadful journalism. I will add, I don't have an axe to grind. I infer from that that you think I am anti-Korean. Well, I am not. I reiterate, I think they only had exceptional luck in that one game. The other teams deserved to be beaten by Korea because they lacked conviction. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Thu Nov 27, 2003 12:50 am Post subject: |
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thought about this, too. In North America, radio shock jocks get death threats all the time, but with one notable exception(Alan Berg), nothing ever comes of them, and the jocks usually just laugh it off as part of the territory.
That's what you THINK. Howard Stern packs heat. Mancow Miller packs heat. Art Bell packs heat. Bill O'Reilly packs heat. Limbaugh packs heat or has escorts. All for the same reason Alan Berg probably should have. Want more examples?
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Okay, but how many actual attempts do they get on their lives? Maybe that's because of their security escorts, but presumably there'd be security at the skating event as well.
[bleep]
Edited by Harpeau at 12:09AM Friday, Nov. 26, 2003. |
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gomurr
Joined: 04 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Thu Nov 27, 2003 1:12 am Post subject: |
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| I don't have an axe to grind either. Actually i think soccer is fun to play but tends to be a sissy sport compared to Hockey, rugby, lacrosse and football (call me a barbarian). I watched the world cup only because there wasn't anything else on TV. Even an amatuer armchair ref like myself can see how many bad or blown calls there were. In the Italy game, i couldn't believe how much the Korean team clutched and grabbed at that Christian Viare(sp???) guy. He had his shirt ripped up a little and at all the dives the Korean players took. |
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Joe Thanks
Joined: 01 Oct 2003
Location: Dudleyville
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| Posted: Thu Nov 27, 2003 2:10 am Post subject: |
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On the other hand"]
Okay, but how many actual attempts do they get on their lives? Maybe that's because of their security escorts, but presumably there'd be security at the skating event as well. |
You're so thick. How is Korea secure? Think about it. Average joes got messed with during the anti-US protests months back. How would a high profile cat be immune? It's not the event itself but OUTSIDE OF it. Man, you are thick
BTW - you don't hear about every stalker or attempt at a celeb's life. Don't assume.
Joe
Edited by Harpeau at 12:09AM Friday, Nov. 26, 2003. |
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Sloth
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Here
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| Posted: Thu Nov 27, 2003 2:17 am Post subject: |
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Just my take on things, but it may be possible that the feeling Ohno is experiencing isn't "intimidation".
It might be annoyance.
He might be saying "Why bother subjecting myself to this fecal matter when I could be doing something else?"
I'm sure that if he came there would be plenty of Koreans that would make it difficult for him to enjoy his time here in the Land of the Morning Calm.
Just my thought. |
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dominic
Joined: 10 Mar 2003
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Thu Nov 27, 2003 2:57 am Post subject: I hope the original poster was joking... |
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I hope the original poster was joking when he typed this redicolous piece of crap.
The summer of 2002 did wonders for South Korea�s international image, as did the 1988 Olympics
Yes, it's true that the 2002 world cup was very good for korea's image, but the Olympics? Are you kidding? The '88 Olympics were one of the worst in history as far as bribing and paying of judges, complaints and protests about results. Do some research before you say BS. Everyone knows the '88 olympics werent good for Korea's rep, the original poster is obviously Korean |
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